Long time in the making (almost 2 years) and much asked for, I finally finished the new update for Bretonnia. The new update contains the following:
- New layout and graphic design.
- Blessing of the Lady is 5+ vs missiles, 6+ vs close combat attacks. This makes it a mix of 5th ed 6th ed rules. Grail Vow always have a 5+ Ward save.
- Removed Roland the Marshal, Reynard the Hunter, the Knight of the Perilous Lance, Jasperre the Fair. These characters never had any official models and lacked fluff, and I felt the book had enough characters as is. They will appear in the special character supplement instead.
- Prophetess of the Lady 175 pts.
- Men-at-Arms 5 pts, have halberds instead of pole-arms, can swap for spears for free. Have Ld6.
- Peasant Levy no longer have farm tools, just normal hand weapons.
- Field Trebuchet 100 pts, can no longer pivot.
- Hippogryph Knights 70 tps.
- Battle Pilgrims 8 pts.
- Pegasus Knights 45 pts.
- Foot Knights 9 pts, can no longer take halberds.
- Grail Vow more expensive for characters.
- Prayer Icon of Quenelles is exchanged for Mane of the Purebreed.
- Removed free Champion upgrades, champions no longer mandatory. Streamlines the rules with the other books.
- Grail Knights can have champions, no longer have Living Saint's rule.
- Healing Hands is a constant rule for Priestess of Shallya, not a spell. Cost increased to 50 pts.
- Virtue of Purity 15 pts, increase Ward save to 5 for Knight/Questing vow, 4+ for Grail Vow.
- Tancred's sword wounds Undead automatically. Grail Shield causes enemies to suffer -1 to hit.
- Sacrosantum's Shield of Faith gives +1 to Ward saves.
- Spiteful Glance 5th spell, increased to 11+. Wrathful Righteousness lowered to 10+, 4th spell.
- Louen's Regen similar to War Hydra.
- Blessing no longer requires you to give up going first, you roll like other armies.
- Fay Enchantress give 4+ Ward save to Grail Knights if joining them.
- Silvaron 1 W, Ca instead of MC.
With that finished (apart from the bugs that I've probably missed), I will now start working on the 8th ed update for Skaven. Enjoy!
I think that upgrading a character to a Grail Knight should improve their combat stats instead of their leadership, meaning that a character upgraded to one gains +1 WS, S, I and A. Of course, that would make the upgrade more powerful so it would become 40 points to be fair. It would also prevent the oddity of normal paladins and lords having little combat ability difference from their Grail Knight counterparts.
ReplyDeleteI think that would require a whole new character choice to change all those stats, and it would also make Louen rather poor by comparison (unless I buff him too). Blood Knights are about the same in skill level compared to Vampires as well, so I don't see much of a problem with the current system.
DeleteUh. No they're not. Blood Knights have one less WS, I and Attacks compared to Vampire leaders. In the case of Louen, just increasing his Strength, WS and I by 1 is enough due to his already high stats.
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ReplyDeleteThe wording for the sacrosanctum of the lady's Shield of Faith ability needs tweaking due to the changes of the Blessing of the Lady.
ReplyDeleteDoes Virtue of Discipline mean that only front rank is enough?
ReplyDeleteYes, like normal steadfast.
DeleteHere's a suggestion for 8.5 edition. Models that can parry receive a +1 bonus to their ward save if they already have one. To balance this out (i.e, prevent 2+ ward saves in close combat) you could have your rules say that ward saves always fail on a 1 or 2. By relation, make spells that cause re-rolls on ward saves just improve or reduce the save instead.
ReplyDeleteI will probably do something like that when I write up the rules, yes.
DeletePriests usually grant a passive effect along with the spells they can use. Maybe the Healing Hands ability of the Priestess of Shaylla should be a passive effect instead of a spell.
ReplyDeleteFixed!
DeleteIs miss out on the trebuchet without pivot and Grail Knight no longer being living saints.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about the trebuchet though is that it is both stronger than other war machines, and is literally nailed down into the ground. Pivoting it should really be impossible.
DeleteGrail Knights no longer being Living Saints, just puts them back where they were in 5th ed. They even have a Champion model, so it seems strange that they would not have any champions.
I feel that the trebuchet should retain str 5 (10) instead of str 4. The inability to pivot on the spot is fine but the weapon strength should not be decreased.
DeleteAt S5, it's just too destructive due to how stone throwers work in 8th ed. At S4, it already has about 40% higher damage output than a normal stone thrower, but only cost around 20 pts more than basic stone throwers.
DeleteYou do realize that trebuchet's were the most powerful warmachines of the time period. They can throw objects as large as cars hundreds of yards away. I don't think S5 is too much of a stretch, especially when you consider it's one of 2 pure shooting units we have the in the book.
DeleteAbsolutely, but then the price for the Trebuchet needs to go up about 40%. I've simply lowered it by 1 in Strength like the rest of the game's Stone Throwers.
Deleteisn't the spiteful glance spell a bit too powerfull for a 10+ spell? a character within 12" dies on a failed initiative test. for example, try this on a great unclean one (up to 580pts), he dies on a 5+. no saves of any kind. (not to mention kairos fateweaver (565pts) on a 2+)
ReplyDeletei know you need line of sight for this but you only need to place the wizard in a bunker of men at arms.
Increased the cost of it a bit, and made it the 5th spell. It should be about the same as Fate of Bjurna.
Deletehello Mathias!
ReplyDeletefirst of all I really thank you, i was waiting for this update since long time. I could have only a fast read to the book and i see that you modified lot of thing. I like the grail knights you created and also the fact that they have always WS 5+. i'll go deeply in detail later as soon as i have time to do so, in the mean while i can suggest you to change the virtues to Tancred (virtue of purity is useless for him since he already have WS 5+ because is grail knight, so he has the same ability twice) and Behemond maybe more suited to be granted with the virtue of audacity (or what is its name), the one granting re-roll if the enemy has more strength than his.
Good point, I've fixed both the Virtue and Tancred.
DeleteAs for Bohemund, the Virtue of Heroism is that of the Lord of Bastonne, hence Bohemund has it too.
DeleteThe wording for Leoncoure's ladys champion rule needs tweaking as it refers to strength of attacks.
ReplyDeleteFixed!
DeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteI'm just wondering why you removed the option of halberds from the foot knights? just curious as I always liked that option
It doesn't really fit with the time period for the Knights, halberds/polearms weren't really used by them until the beginning of the 15th century, and Bretonnia is much closer to 1330 in terms of equipment. Greatswords/axes is a better fit, and sets them apart from M@A.
DeleteI don't understand the new Blessing of the Lady. You need waste the first turn praying or not?
ReplyDeleteYou do not need to lose the first turn, you gain the blessing regardless, so you roll like normal armies. This streamlines it with the rest of 8th ed, and makes it a lot easier to use Bretonnians in allied games.
DeleteWhy do Paladins and Lords have to take a mount? It makes it needlessly complicated to simply add a Character to a unit of Foot Knights.
ReplyDeleteBecause 99% of the time, a lord or paladin would not want to fight from foot. They will always prefer to be mounted. You can still buy the Virtue of Empathy for 10 points(which is cheaper than a barded warhorse) and there is also the Templar Crusader who doesn't need to be mounted and gives Hatred to the unit.
DeleteWhat Alex said. This version have both Yeomen Serjeants to go with the Peasant units, and Templars to join the Foot Knights. Very few Bretonnian lords would ever fight on foot except in sieges, hence I want to keep the focus on them being mounted in keeping with the army's background.
DeleteIn response to the possible change of the Lance I don't like it. Here's why. A bus of 9 in Lance formation has 2 extra ranks, a small footprint for the enemy to swing back, has 15 Lance attacks and 7 horse attacks. Those same knights in standard formation have no extra ranks, a footprint that allows more attacks and makes it much harder to double charge. It also has 1 fewer Lance attacks and 2 fewer horse attacks. Fight in extra ranks doesn't make up for the extra attacks you lose from devastating charge in the Lance and the more knights you add the more you lose.
ReplyDeleteKnight 's have a hard enough time breaking steadfast, the Lance helps mitigate that
That's very true. The suggested change is actually with my 8,5 version in mind, in which case they would have full use of their attacks in the second rank. But with the current 8th ed rules, it's better to keep it as is I think.
DeleteHey! First of all, thanks a lot for this amazing work!
ReplyDeleteI was wondering: what exactly do you use to generate such good-looking pdf army books? Some complicated LaTeX scripts? Any editor?
Hi, I'm just using MS Word actually, plus a whole lot of duct tape and glue. For graphic design, I use Paint.net and simple Photoshop, nothing too fancy really.
DeleteWow. Impressive :p Guess I'll just have to practice my Word skills!
DeleteBy the way, I sent you a mesage with the site's contact form. I guess it somehow got lost in the mists of the Internet (and spam filter, maybe?), so I ask it again: would you consider translating your rules? I am actually French speaking (from Belgium, so I speak a quite decent English :p), and I would really love to do it in my language for free (of course) if you're interested. My opinion is that it would touch a broader range of people, and allow them appreciating your work. It takes quite an advanced level of English to understand all that (and especially to do it easily), a level younger players don't have, for example.
With all GW's post End Times shit, it is very possible your rules become the new standard in the upcoming years. Translating them is, according to me, a step in the direction where Warhammer survives AoS as something else than "an old game played by a few stubborn retro players". The good direction, indeed.
Well, anyway, let me know what you think ;)
Hi, not sure if it was you I just responded to through email, but just in case I'll say the same thing here: Unfortunately I won't have the time to do that myself, but if you (or someone else) have the interest to do so, I can send you the original word document so you can replace the text yourselves, without having to re-do the layout. I know some French people have done so already, namely with the Bretonnian book, and posted it on their forums.
DeleteIt wasn't me.
DeleteNice! Well, I volunteer :) I don't know how fast I'll be, but will let you know each time I'm done with a translation. There is no need for you to spend time on translation, of course. The only thing for you to do is actually keeping good track of the updates you make to your books, so that you can tell me what to change exactly and where when something needs to. I think you already do it, so no problem:)
My mail box is a gmail one: just put "etlarius" before the @. I give it in this cryptic way only to avoid problems with bots... I already get enough spam^^
If you have the address of the forum where the bretonnian book has been translated, I would be very interested to have it too. I could then only check their translation rather than redo everything (except if I don't like if, but let's give it a try^^). Actually, I play Bretonnia, so I planned beginning by that one, you see ^^
Anyway, thanks a lot!
I should volunteer, too and would try to translate it in German - at least the rule section. Would be much more accepted by german players in my community / club :)
DeleteBut maybe you know someone, who has translated it allready,
The Peasant Levy doesn't have a points cost listed for the throwing weapons. I assume it's either 1/2 or 1 because it says "point per model" after it.
ReplyDeleteGood point (well, ½ point ;), I will update it ASAP.
DeleteSo for anyone wanting an updated version of this army book with Battlescribe, here is the file
ReplyDeletehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8t4rKVQXUiUQ1FBdlNXM1ljRmM
If there are any mistakes or things that need tweaking you can let me know at acebaur@gmail.com
Hello mathias speaking about the consideration of the lance formation i think that removing that special frame to bretonnia would only disrupt the image of bretonnia more than what is it right now. It will cancel one of those singularities that make bretonnia unique.
ReplyDeleteHey Mathias, thnaks a lot for the update! First testplay against HighElves was really nice ;)
ReplyDeleteWith the changed Ward Saves, I found the Sanctum of the Lady much more usefull than before. Unfortunatly i can't see any situation, where it can be necessary to choose the "Radiant Light". -1 on Hit-Rolls would be an option. But -1 von WS+BS is not even half as good as +1 on Ward Saves.
One additional question: Am I correct, that the Lore Attribute "Favour of the Lady" only affect the target of the augument spell? Cause there are onle 3 of 7 spells, that are moderate argument spells
DeleteOR does the lore attribute affect the unit in which the mage has alligned? For example in the white Magic of the High Elves/Slan.
Hi, I will take a look at it, but -1 WS can also mean that the Knights hit on 3's instead of 4's against units with WS4, or give WS5 units -1 to hit since they will now have WS4, which is quite useful.
DeleteAs for the Favour of the Lady, it only applies to the Augment spells, yes.
On Page 118 Hugo le Petit. were you meaning to write: if he scOrcs a hit?
ReplyDeleteI take it there's no chance of the Beastmen getting some lore that isn't 500 synonyms for smearing feces on things?
ReplyDeleteJust asking.
Also, typo
Hippogryph Knights
"Even a young hippogryph f is capable"
Well, I cannot really promise that, but they will include some newish lore that has not been part of their previous army books at least.
DeleteAlso; fixed!
Hello mathias. Today i was wondering about a deletion you implemented in bretonnia armybook: champions are not free. I want to share with you my thoughts..maybe you will agree. I have always considered the fact of having a free champion for bretonnian units as someting very "as per background" but also a way to balance the lady blessing rule. It is matter of fact that if i don't include a champion in my knightly units my opponent will have less oportunity to remove the blessing from that unit. The only way is to make that unit flee. Previously instead the opponent could try to issue a challenge and see it refused by the bretonnian. I think you should reintroduce the free champion because those free10 points are very well repaid by giving to the opponenent the possibility to issue a challange and see it refused..so to go into hand to hand combat with the bretonnian unit removing the blessing first.
ReplyDeleteHi, I had considered that, but I've never had an issue with challenges in this regard. Refusing challenges is something that you rarely do with characters to protect them, refusing challenges with champions is rather counterproductive, especially with Bretonnian champions who will either win the challenges against other champions, or deny wounds against enemy characters.
DeleteWell immagine a lance of 9 knights with champion charging a singol powerful hero (why not on monster also). The opponent will issue the challenge for sure so to remove the blessing or to fight only against your champion. If the challenge is refused then i.ll lose the blessing and the most of the time the hero will attack at first.
DeleteSure, but these situations are very rare, most of the time, you would want to challenge with your champion to avoid casualties, and if you would rather put all those attacks against a single character, then the Bretonnian player simply have to make that choice.
DeleteΙs there a chance the pdf with the new upgrades to be available for download?.... :)
ReplyDeleteHi, the pdf can be found under Army books, it's already the latest version.
DeleteSo I think the Banner of Defense needs to be updated or replaced. With the new Blessing giving a 5+ against all missile weapons, paying 25 points for a situational 16% increase doesn't seem worth it.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how to improve it but keep it's cost the same so a Realm unit can take it. Maye make it CC oriented instead as that's where we are weaker now?
On another note, when do you think you'll have the supplement you mentioned with the special chars that you took out of the last version? I really dug some of them, especially the Perilous knight. I had also just made a conversion of Reynard :p
Updated it, it now gives 4+ against all strength.
DeleteGreat idea about the lance formation new update. Makes it more easy and still hs the fluff! i think you should move on with this idea mate :)
ReplyDeleteI don't you realize what you lose by switching to a standard with those rules. For one thing, to make use of the Fight in Extra ranks you have to take at least 11 knights and even then you are barely benefiting. To take full advantage you need 15. Even with 15 knights you still have less attacks(especially from horses) on the charge than the current lance.
DeleteThen there is the issue of breaking steadfast. We HAVE to break steadfast to break the enemy. With a standard formation 15 knights only has 3 total ranks before casualties. The current lance would have 5!
Yes, we lose as all Warhammer armies cavalry units find it really difficult to form even one extra rank. But still we gain the devastating charge that makes a difference for the lance formation. We don't need to have an unbreakable and Unbeaten Bretonian army to enjoy playing with it!
DeleteThis is why for example i was always against the fact that there was not a limit of peasantes unit a Bretonian Should field in the army. I never liked the idea the peasants would stay in their huts by the fireplace , while the noble Knights marched to a fight. There should nbe a rule like "for every Kinght unit, a peasant unit of men at arms or Bowmen MUST be in the army".
Mathias, i love your work my friend and congratulations for everything! Just to small problems...those continuous "upgrades" make it not fair for the rest warhammer armies, and also make it impossible for me to print the great rulebooks you made!
Reeks of egoism. Go on and remove the utterly brilliant lance formation.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean here; are you for or against changing how the lance formation works?
DeleteStats suggestion for Hippogryph Knights?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean? Do you think they should change?
DeleteYou suggest to use the same stats for a 200 points Monster in a 70 points unit option? I think that it should be somehow little less powerful from the lord's mount.
DeleteThey don't have the same stats though. Normal Hippogryphs/Griffons are 150 pts now, and they have more WS, T, W, A and Ld than the smaller Hippogryphs.
DeleteLove what you are doing with Bretonnia. I've played a few games with some friends and we made some changes to the Spiteful Glance and Virtue of the Lady spells. They are included below for your browsing.
ReplyDeleteSpiteful Glance
Cast on 10+
Spiteful Glance is a hex spell with a range of 18”. The Wizard can attempt to turn an enemy character within line of sight into a frog. If the spell is successfully cast roll a die, on a 3+, the model is turned into a frog and cannot do anything except croak and hop around until the start of the next Bretonnian magic phase. If the character was riding a monster when it was turned into a frog, then the monster roils on the Monster Reaction Table just as if the rider were slain. If cast into combat the “Frog” can not be attacked and the model is placed to the back of the unit. The caster can choose to increase the range of this spell to 24”. If she does so, the casting value is increased to 15+.
The Lady‘s Virtue of Valour
Cast on 12+
The Lady’s Virtue of Valour is an augment spell. Choose a friendly unit within 12”. The unit will immediately rally and becomes Stubborn until the start of the next Bretonnian Magic phase. In addition any unit affected by the spell will immediately regain the Blessing of the Lady if they do not have it. The caster can choose to target all friendly units within 12”. If she does so, the casting value is increased to 20+.
The Spiteful Glance was quite powerful in the couple of games we played. I removed a Great Unclean One and a Demon Prince in one game and Karl Franz in another.
The Lady's Virtue will give the Bretonnian players the option of a few more tactics. They would now have the option of fleeing as part of the bait and switch and still be able to regain the Lady's Blessing.
Thoughts???
Scott
Forgot to add a question. Why is the Trebuchet no longer able to pivot?
ReplyDeleteMight have missed it in the massive thread, but is there an Army Builder version for DL? I'm on Macs and can't use the other one that was mentioned with the GDrive link.
ReplyDeleteThanks and awesome work!!!