- Morghur's Braystaff affects enemy wizard on the miscast roll of a 6 rather than rolling doubles.
- Fixed bug with Minotaurs having both Frenzy and Bloodgreed, as well as Fear in the bestiary.
- Majority of the army has the Forest Strider special rule.
- Chaos Mutants roll once at the start of the game to determine what mutation they have, rather than every turn.
- Fixed bug with Molokh Slugtongue having lore of shadow instead of death in the army list.
- The Lore of the Wild now references Wizards instead of Bray-Shamans.
- Razorgors and Ramhorns have the Thunderous Charge rule (+1 S on the charge).
- Clarified that characters riding a chariot replaces the Bestigor.
- Clarified that characters riding a Ramhorn replaces one crew.
- Added Primal Fury to Ramhorn crew.
- Marks of Chaos works the same as in the WoC book.
- Gors and Ungors may not Skirmish, have Ambushers by default
- Ungor Raiders may not have standard bearers or deploy as ambushers.
- Centigors may take great weapons.
- Gorebulls can be Battle Standard Bearers.
- Chaos Giants can take the Mutant Monstrosity upgrade, giving them a 5+ natural armour. Follow the same giant rules as in Albion.
- Chaos Spawn have movement 2D6, 40 pts.
- Clarified Ghorros and Ungrol joining units.
- Razorgors have Natural Armour (6+), A3, Impact Hits (D3), 45 pts.
- Razorgor Chariots have Impact Hits (D6+2).
- Chaos Trolls follow the same rules as in Warriors of Chaos.
- Marks of Chaos follow the same rules as in Warriors of Chaos.
- Bestial Surge makes the models move forward straight forward using the Random Movement (D6+1) rule.
- Viletide boosted version cast on 8+.
- Devolve boosted version cast on 16, 24" range.
- Brayscream can be boosted to S4, casting value 13+.
- Added some new fluff blurbs throughout, and a new short story.
- Swapped to a lighter page background to make the text easier to read.
- Fixed some repeated sentences in the main background.
- Some new art, including a high-res cover.
- Added headings.
- Added version number.
Araby should be out fairly soon as well, still waiting on the lore for some new special characters, otherwise that one is finished as well. Will be working on Bretonnia in the meantime, which probably won't take too long too finish.
I'm no beastmen expert by any means, but the changes look good overall.
ReplyDeletePersonally I'd like to see the dragon ogres removed along with the Marks of Chaos options (infringes too much on the WoC domain IMO).
Is it just me, but does it seem a bit odd that the Razorgors get D3 impact hits combined with +1S on the charge, while Juggernaouts of Khorne only gets the D3 impact hits? That comparison seem a bit odd to me at least.
Marks of Chaos are a pretty big part of their lore though, and they have both art and models clearly depicting them with Marks.
DeleteI could see that, but it felt to me as if Razorgors is definitely a beast that should have Impact Hits. Thunderous charge is due to them being mutated boars, which also get a S bonus.
to me dragon ogres really fit with beasts of Chaos rather than WoC - I mean, they are giant centaurs.
DeleteStu:
DeleteBeastmen is an army that is extremely forest themed and her the Dragon Ogres don't fit very well for one thing. They are not giant centaurs either, apart from having four legs etc. Their lore have nothing to do with beastmen and fit far better in the WoC army than in a rag-tag beastmen horde. Everything in the Beastmen army should have fur or a likelyhood of fur at the very least, for the sake of the theme. Also, the Beastmen army book should be about minotaurs as far as Monstous "Infantry" goes, as it is their unique monstrous infantry. Dragon Ogres will only undermine them. If I'm not mistaking, they wer not in the last Beastmen army book and neither were they included in TWW2 either.
MAthias: I know Khorngors, Tzangors etc existed at some point, and I'm no expert on the beastmen list, but were they not removed from the latest official lists? If so, it seems to me that GW wanted the beastmen to be their own thing from a lore perspective and on the gaming table; not so much an offshoot of the WoC list.
As far as I can recall, none of the Beastmen special characters had any traditional marks of chaos either and addint this to troops, while not having it on any special characters does seem a little bit odd.
A mark of chaos in the lore seems to be something that a character earns by proving himslef and sellign his soul as it were, while the beastmen are already considred to be the "children of chaos" at birth, so the marks don't really make that much sense from that aspect either I think. I'm not saying they are ignorant and would never carry a symbol ofany particular chaos god (as often depicted), but that is not really what a "Mark of Chaos" truly is I'd strongly argue...
Not disagreeing with razorgors definately deserving impact hits. Just pointing out the oddity that a mutatied boar justifies the additional strength bonus, while a brass rhinosorus somehow don't. They are similarly sized after all if I'm not mistaking.
Beastmen has literally always been "beasts of chaos" until GW decided to doof. Dragon Ogres, Troll, Ogres and all such creatures much more belong in that book than WoC, because well, the name is WARRIORS of chaos ;)
DeleteUnknown:
DeleteGW has changed and adapted their lore over time. Always going back to what GW moved away from towards 8th ed is not generally a good idea. They refined the themes and lore of the various army books over a long time and going back to previous editions to justify adding things that are already an established part of another army is generally speaking very rarely a good idea.
How you recon Ogres, Trolls and dragons ogres fitting more in a Beastmen army book is beyond me, as this does not even fit well geographically speaking or lore-wise...
Every monstrous Beast/Infantry you add to the Beastmen list adds very little thematically, but does a lot of damage to the far more natural position of Minotaurs in the list. More units in a list is not always better for a list thematically speaking.
i guess we wont find common ground on this :)
DeleteWell, there are Beastmen all over the world, not just in forests, although that's were they are most common.
DeleteThe 7th ed book did remove marks, but there are still fluff blurbs in it that talk about beastmen clearly being aligned with both Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch.
Mathias:
DeleteTher is no issue with being aligned with one particular chaos god, without having their marks in game terms. This would be common in the tribes of the Norse as well, just to give a quick example. Chaos cultists more often than not are are also devoted to one of the chaos gods in particular, but they have not typically earned a "Mark of Choas" even if they are so devoted etc.
Handing out proper marks of chaos let and right so to speak goes a long way towards oundermining one of the major aspects that define the WoC army book as a theme.
DeleteI didnt know that the chaos gods were a bunch of racists who only gave their gifts to humans;).
DeleteI like that there is some common grounds to tie together the main three chaotic armies. A true chaotic warband should really include a little of everything in my opinion (except maybe for opposing chaos deities).
Beside the characters, only one unit (bestigors) may upgrade with marks so its not really handed out left and right.
Chaos cultists may be as devoted as they like, it is not a guarantee that the gods will notice you, especially as cultists are not the best fighters around (not saying its the only way to make the gods notice you but it probably helps). And if a cultist proved himself enough and got "marked" I am pretty sure he would graduate from the "wannabe chaosman" club that the cultists most certainly consists of:).
Yeah, it's only the elites that can get marked anyway. I've read that in the End Times, you could actually give out marks to ALL beastmen units in the army, so it's not unfeasible to think that GW would have included that as an option in the 8th ed Beastmen book, had they made one.
DeleteSame goes for the Chaos cultists, plenty of them have the Chaos Mark on their bodies. It was only in early lore (around 5th ed) that only Chaos warriors could have marks.
The only thing I don't like is removing Skirmishers from Gors and Ungors. Since you made them able to take ranged weapons, there are cases where it's preferable to make them skirmishers. In fact, in old army books, Ungors and Gors would skirmish all the time.
ReplyDeleteThis was done for streamlining purposes, since both of these units are meant to be fielded as larger mainline units, them being skirmishers would not really fit in that regard. Their only missile weapons where throwing axes, which is often used by ranked units as well. They were not "true" skirmishers in 6th ed either since they still benefitted from rank bonus, and skirmishing spearmen would be pretty weird overall...
DeleteGreat stuff as ever. What would you say is the timescale to finish the project as outlined (the 45 bits)?
ReplyDeleteOh, that will likely be quite a long time, probably 2-3 years at least. Some updates will go faster than others, so it's hard to say exactly.
Deletewell keep up the good work. You are doing great.
DeleteHappy so far with how it didnt change too much - not a fan of gors not being able to skirmish anymore - i Always imaginated gors as a rabid throng rather than an organized band of Warriors. id like to keep the option, even if it was more expensive points wise. I also liked the previous mutants more, their randomness really represented chaos and Mutation. being stuck to one Mutation per game takes out all the fun in it.
ReplyDeletewhat i didnt like in the previous Edition and this one aswell is the drunkness of centigors - it is a gamble that can make or break the successfulness of centigors. they have always been on the weaker side of cavalry since they are so malfunctioning at times and very weak against skirmishers and shooting Units, so a bit more strength in whatever manner would be nice. what sounds as a rant is more of constructive criticism, Keep it up, thanks Matthias!
I think I would be okay with giving the Gor's their skirmish option back; it would make more sense for them than the Ungors at least.
DeleteI've heard a lot about the Centigors, though I'm not so sure I agree about them not being useful. I could look over their pts costs, but otherwise I think their randomness is quite fitting.
The randomness is definitely a trait for centigors, it should be preserved, however, maybe adding the vanguard special rule could help make them a bit more foolproof?
DeleteHey, why do ungor raider when they trade short bows for javelins don't they get shields, like other javelin units?
ReplyDeleteI can add in shields, np.
DeleteRegarding the Wood Elves. You said that the Sidhe did not fit, since the Fair Folk type were represented by the Wood Elves, Does that mean that Asrai are in Albion?
ReplyDeleteNo, it just means that there's no real point in including Sidhe in Warhammer, as the Sidhe mythos is already represented by the Asrai.
DeleteRegarding Pygmies, Based on models, there are a bit more than the Wiki states. The White Dwarf magazine should provide a bit more information. There was one quest where they have to secure they floating island home. That could provide more.
ReplyDeleteI might check it out later on, though Pygmies is not really a force that many people really care about much at all at this point.
DeleteAlso, regarding the Old Slann. The Lizardmen are the true servitors of the Old Ones. However, the Old Third edition Slann are a curious bunch. Including them would be very tricky, but a potentially fun addition. There is a blogspot by Goblinlee that goes into detail about the "Army of the Jade Throne." Maybe if you ever decide to make something on the Older editions of Warhammer Fantasy. What are your thoughts?
ReplyDeleteNot planning on bringing back Old Slann atm, I'm more interested in lore from 4th ed and onwards, the Old Slann does not fit into that since they were replaced by the Lizardmen.
DeleteDefinite fan of keeping the marks for Bestigor. The old models are very cool. Also wondered about adding a hand weapon and shield option for bestigor so that new Tzaangor can be used as Tzeentch marked Bestigor. In the old chaos book there were Khorngor, Pestigor, Slaangor and Tzaangor.
ReplyDeleteI kinda think that the club sweep of the giant that inflicts D6 automatic hits should be replaced with 6 attacks, and the same thing should be done with other automatic hits.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean? He already attacks with random attacks 2D6 on "swing with club" as is.
DeleteAs in, rather than inflicting random hit (before your change) or making a random amount of attacks (after your change), I think that instead, you should replace it with a set amount of attacks so there is less rolling. What if the Giant is facing only a single opponent and then Swings With Club? Just making a set 6 attacks means that the Giant doesn't come across as having different rules for hitting opponents as everyone else. Also, I think you should bring back the old template for a Giant Falling over where everyone under the template suffers a number of hits equal the the giants strength. One more thing, when Thump with Club or 'Eadbutt is rolled, maybe Giant should make a standard To Hit roll instead.
ReplyDelete