This changes the following:
Kingdoms of Ind:
- Devas are now Immune to Psychology (bug fix) and hate Daemons.
- Maharajah 100 pts, Rajah 65 pts.
- Urjana have LA.
- Noble Caste characters may join Warrior Caste units.
- Vishkanya have Scaly Skin (6+), and Poisoned Blood rule.
- Beastmaster Ld7, Beastmaster range down to 6". Beastmaster rule affects MC as well.
- Peasant Levies may take standards.
- Thugees US 10+ instead of 20+ (bug fix). 6pts. May take standards.
- Sowar Horsemen can replace shields with flails.
- Bengal Riders -1 WS, S, Ld, 37 pts. Tigers +1WS.
- Mahouts I3 (bug fix), War Elephants I3.
- Garudas 16 pts.
- Ganeshans can re-roll 1's for Ward saves.
- Darahma has BS6.
- Kodandam clarified as a long bow.
- Parashuruma is Immune to Psychology.
- Amrita is one use only, regains all Wounds, 50 pts.
- Clarified use of Brahmastra.
- Mhogli M5.
- Devas cannot use Inspiring Presence or Hold Your Ground (they don't follow the human troops).
- Pindari Cavalry added. These are fast cavalry, armed with shields, spears, bows, javelins.
- Snake Swarms and Basilisks have Lowborn Caste. Removed Forest Strider since it's not really getting used anyway.
Halflings:
- Removed Forest Strider from most units.
- Thieves gain 25 pts from stealing items. They now steal random items instead of the lowest value item.
- Half Tank streamlined to follow Chariot rules.
- Hot Pot and Soup Cannon ignores armour saves.
- Multiple bug fixes and rules clarifications.
Dogs of War:
- Rhinox Riders added as a Rare Choice at 75 pts. These are quite nerfed compared to the Forge World rules, but also more expensive than Mournfang Cavalry.
Nippon:
- Nerfed Void of Emptiness, now only applies to Movement, unit is ItP during the effect.
Bretonnia:
- Some bug fixes.
- Banner of Defence gives 4+ ward save against missiles of any strength.
Is there a possible chaos dwarf update in the future? A lot of the special units are in need of point cost tweaks and/or rules adjustments for increased viability.
ReplyDeleteWhat particular issues do you have with the units in the list that needs updates? I could use some examples as to what changes should be made.
DeleteI will type up a list later this evening. I weeks like to say that I really appreciate the work you have done with your army books. My gaming group are really enjoying using them. They have helped respark our interest in an already great game.
Deletewould like*, silly swipe.
DeleteBerzerkers are too expensive in their current iteration. I suggest 10 - 12 pts/model. The magma cannon is too short ranged to be of use. I suggest increase the range to 18" or drop the point cost to 100 - 125 pts. What do you think about having units iof tenderizer/whirlwinds? 90 -100 pts each, units of 1-3? Finally, resolute should mimic the western dwarf rule. More to come.
DeleteRange 12" is really nice for a flamethrower. Do you played the dwarf flamethrower? Is undervalued. 12"+artillery dice + 9" of the template. That's normally at least 20+ inches of range. Maybe they can't do the best shot at turn 1 if the dwarfs starts the battle, but is really good the rest of the battle. I saw the 24" range of the forgeworld magma cannon and is totally nasty for the oponent.
DeleteMaybe the Contempt and Resolute could be the same rule. Ignore the panic of the lower races, Hatred (Dwarves) and +1 Toughness when the chaos dwarves charges (instead +1 Strenght like their western cousins) because they ignore the attacks of worthless enemies and feel no pain during the zealotry of the charge.
I have never used the dwarf flamethrower. I I'll have to check it out. I like your suggestion for contempt and resolute. It makes sense from a fluff standpoint.
DeleteThoughts on adding the mortar and swivel gun to the army list? Also, thoughts on increasing the k'daii ward save back to the original 4+?
DeleteHave played several games with the chaos dwarfs over the past few weeks. I've noticed that the army seems to lack the staying power of their western cousins. In addition. Several of the units are over costed including acolytes, berzerkers, whirlwind/tenderizers, infernal guard/ironsworn, the juggernaut siege tower, as well as the kollosus. In addition, the fireglaives for infernal guard are 1 to 2 pts/model too expensive. K'daii are generally not worth taking due to their reduced save. The army wide special rules need an overhaul as well.
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DeleteWill have a look at it, but they are not really supposed to have as much staying power as normal Dwarfs due to their increased damage output and more manoeuvrable units. The swivel is in there under the name Inferno gun, what Mortar are you referring to?
DeleteThe mortar is basically the bazooka so its there. The acolytes of hashut have the potential to be a cool and interesting unit. Unfortunately, they are somewhat lacking when compared to other units in the book. I really see no reason to use them over immortals or regular infernal guard. What are your thoughts on having the whirlwinds/tenderizers in units? Also your thoughts on increasing the ward save of the k'daii to 4+?
DeletePlz, the world don't need k'daii again with ward save 4+. Is too frustrating, and more when the normal "demonic" ward save is 5+...
DeleteIn other hand, +1 to buff chaos dwarf infantry with new passives. Yes, they have more manoeuvrable units, but wast dwarves has gyrocopters. Gyro. Copters!
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ReplyDeleteThank you for adding the Rhinox Riders. I admit I can understand the nerf but it is a bit much for only the loss of 30 points. The changes I would make is bringing back ALL the options because after the stat reductions they aren't that dangerous anymore so the loss of the options is just a little disappointing. I would like to at least get the Ironfists and heavy armor as an option. I would also like an attack put back on the Rhinox. I can see the other nerfs but losing an attack and losing the +1 impact hits is a bit much again. At this juncture it isn't worth fielding them.
ReplyDeleteI also forgot to add they need an entry in the summary as well.
DeleteWell, they still have 4 S5 and 4 S4 attacks each with add.HW's, so they are still very much a threat. The original rules gave them a whooping 11 S5 attacks, and no one is going to want to fight that, especially when they only cost 105 pts. Because the DoW is used in several tournaments, it is imperative that the rules are not overpowered, in which case it's better to have the Rhinox Riders at a relatively lower power level like the rest of the army list. The loss of Ironfists is because the weapon only exist in the OK book, it's not a DoW weapon, and heavy armour was lost to avoid them having too good an armour save on top of their high T and W (and the models don't really have HA either). I will add them into the summary table though.
DeleteGot a few typos for you Matthias
ReplyDelete"Settra's fleet appeared once more off the western shOrcs"
"only an ore would disturb their rest"
"The ambition and confidence if the Bretonnian Knights knew no bounds!"
"The lord of Brionne was ait down, and Quenelles was expanded."
"Despite determined resistance from the Fstalians"
"staining the waters of the river with foul Orc Wood!"
Also, the Tale of the Questing Knight mentions lances. Perhaps it should be edited slightly?
Thanks for the comment last thread about lore, I know that the poor and overly poop-focused lore of the last army book was a fairly substantial and repeated complaint among Beastman players. (the other one was the army's general mediocre performance, but that's another matter)
Thanks, fixed all those errors (caused by OCR scanning, though "orc wood" was rather amusing!). As for the questing knights tale, I might change it at some point, but I generally dislike changing the original work. It's a bit difficult to have a good joust without lances ;)
DeleteNippon should have a Haikido mon to represent the Black Samurai. In all cases it causes parries and extra attacks to be gained on a 5+ save while granting +1 toughness to everyone, +1 attacks and initiative to Red Devils, Daimyo, Taisho and Hatamoto and +1 strength to Daimyo. It would also be expensive at +4 or +5 points per model and +40 points for characters.
ReplyDeleteTo make fluffy sense, an army that takes the mon would also become part of the Forces of Destruction instead of the Forces of Order.
Like a Warriors of Chaos army without chariots and barded giant horses?
DeleteYeah. While the vanilla Chaos Warrior army book represents chaos norsemen, I feel that Kurgan and Hung would be better represented by a Nippon army full of samurai with the Haikido mon.
DeleteThe Black Samurai are not part of Nippon per say though, they are essentially Chaos Worshippers. Giving them their own Mon would be the same as including Chaos Cultists in the Empire army. You are better off player WoC in this case.
DeleteKurgan are more akin to Conan barbarians, and Hung are based on the Huns, so Nippon is not really that a good a choice for them either.
Ty Mathias, and no problem for give you my feedback. I'll try to play more Ind this August.
ReplyDeleteMore ideas and posible changes, you did the update so fast without talk more XD
The Devas should have Hatred (Demons of Chaos). Is terribly lore-friendly. They're created to fight the Asura. Truly situational rule, but the pixiu has the same rule, they're demon killers. All other new rules are nice
I think the Maharajah are a bit too expensive and the Rajah too cheap. Compare them with Empire characters. The unserving loyalty of the rajah is better than the cold blod rule of the captain, maybe 65 points would be better. And the maharajah is too expensive, compare him with a lord of pirates, who has a cool leadership rule too but has good stats. Maybe 100 points would fit. And the Maharajah heavy armour should cost 1 point less, but isnt important. And morning star is better than the spear in all situations, it should coste more, 1 point more for example.
The gurus need a Caste, for the sinergy of the army. Lowborn caste, for example, it doesn't matter.
The vishkanya doesnt have scaly skin in her army description, only in the army list.
The beastmaster has better stats now but he has a mistake. He dont give his Beastmaster rule to monstruos cavalry. That means the bengal tiger don't benefit and they should. And worse, the war elephants doesn't. It has no sense, the royal elephant can be stubborn and the little elephants can't? As i said, is a mistake.
Darahma and Karishna. The avatar rule. It could be more epic. Some ideas: You may join the avatar to Deva units, in fact he's half Deva. The Deva can use his Unserving loyalty too. The avatar is and epic hero and everyone, mortal or not, should respect him. Today my Karisha fought Orion, an Avatar duel. Karishna survived but he flee for the break test :P but it was cool.
Maybe ballistic skill for Darahma? He's the "God-hero of Ind" but he have the same BS than a Rajah when he uses one of the most powerful bow in the existance. Is weird.
Karishna dont have Lore of Devas in his army description, only in the army list.
Increase the Mhogli movement to 5. Just for coherence, he's a better Beastmaster after all.
Light armour for Urjana. Just look the picture. And yes, Molee does a really epic hindu art.
The sowar are improved. Maybe they'r playable now. I'll give them a try.
The snake swarms need lowborn caste, like the gurus, for sinergy. A fakir is a lowborn, right?
The bengal tigers could be nerfed but if the new beastmaster can make them stubborn they could be a really nice in big numbers (maybe 6 bengal rigers, they're cheap)
DeleteThe same for the war elephants. They can be better than the royal elephant for tank units if they can be stubborn. If they cant, 1 royal elephant is better in most situations than 2 war elephants at same cost.
The kalaratri and maruts are more interesting with the improved devas rules (much more if you could join them with the Avatar) The garudas needed that cost improvement.
The Ganeshans Fortune Finders rule. They should re-roll failed rolls of 1 when taking Ward saves. They can re-roll taking armour saves when they don't has armour and they can't re-roll when taking Ward saves? Not cool. At least, if for balance issues you believe the ganeshans shouldn't re-roll ward saves, just edit the Mask of Ganeshan for coherence (with the mask you can re-roll Ward saves) and make it cheaper.
The basilisk, as the Guru and the snake swarms (ahd their lovely fakir) should have caste rule, lowborn for example. You know, sinergy.
And the elephants again. They still have Initiative 2. Isn't bad for me, maybe Initiative 3 is too much for an elephant. You can do some things for my and my "coherence". A) Give Initiative 3 to royal and war elephants. B) Nerf to Initiative 2 the Araby war elephants too. C) Nerf to initiative 2 the Arabyan elephants and improve to Initiative 3 the war elephants, because the little ones are more nimble. You choose, but in my opinion the option C) would be the best, is lore-friendly and is other reason to play war elephants instead the mighty and much more mobile royal elephants.
And, if you chose B) option, nerf everyone, think about nerf the Ganeshans initiative too. They still being elephant kin I guess.
And for very last and funnier to you... Think about creat a new character. A Deva hero-tier character, like Chaos Herald. Someone who could join the Kalaratri and maruts, maybe a lvl 1 Wizard too. I don't know what, is just an idea.
Ty and good luck with our dark-skinned budies : )
I would like to point out that Ind is still absent of Fast Cavalry. The Sowar Horsemen are a good place to fix that. Remove their default shields, reduce the price by 1 or 2 points and replace the option to replace shields with flails to an option to take shields for the same as the price you reduce it with or Flails for the same as the price reduction +1. If they take shields or barding they lose Fast Cavalry.
DeleteAlso, why did you reduce the WS and S of the Bengal Riders? Judging by that picture you used, they have muscles the size of bricks!
Obviously the Sowar would be a must have if they could be Fast Cavarly. Is a needed type of unit in the army. But i think that's the idea. Some armies have a lot of Fast Cavalry, like Araby, Nippon, Kislev, Wood Elves or Dark Elves. Other armies are slow and less manouverable, like Vampire counts, Empire, Norse, Sartosa, Ogre Kingdoms... and Kingdoms of Ind, at least without spam Vanaras and Garudas. And that's the idea, not all armies should be the same. That's good for the game, variety of armies.
DeleteWell, in the lore the bengal riders aen't a super elite chavalry. They're only crazy ppl who lives in the jungle with wild giant tigers. Maybe Initiative 4 to dodge some random scratch, but not more. They aren't Inner Circle Knights, no?
Added Pindari Cavalry, thus giving you 2 choices. The Ancient Indians did use fast cavalry, so it would be historically correct to include them.
DeleteI noticed two glitches in the Hobgoblin army book. The first is that the Hobgoblin war wagon has a special rule that allows it to fire its bolt thrower even if moving yet does not come equipped with a bolt thrower nor an option to take one. The second is that Rokkit Launchas are listed as being a bolt thrower in the army list entry while being listed as a stone thrower in the unit description. They're also lacking the two strength values that stone throwers usually have.
ReplyDeleteThe Bolt Thrower is already inlcluded in the War Wagon, you don't need to purchase it separately. Rockets don't cause extra damage in the centre, like Helstrom. I've updated the Rokkit Launcha in the army list though.
DeleteWow wow wow, the devas change is a big big big change. Now we still need another character to be the General if the big deva can't... when his inspiring presence with 18' range was so good... Think about make them cheaper, that's a great handicap. Check the new costs of the great daemons of Chaos, who don't have the new passives but have better stats, especially the movement or wings. At least you changed the Avatara rule : )
ReplyDeleteYes, I will go back and look at that. I want Ind to be a very mixed army, not just a "good" DoC army, hence they need humans to lead the actual army. It also seems strange that a god would care very much about some banner carried around by a mortal, hence that rule does not apply to them.
DeleteAnd the holy standard of the Devas? It could cost more and work for the devas too, no? If the Avatar work as general for mortals and devas and the standard do the same you have a chance of play a full army of god, that's cool (and extremely expensive). But normally, we still play mortal ppl (and monkeys, a lot of them).
DeleteAnd don't worry, even playing a god you play mortals because they're the only ones who benefit of god passives. Is playing without a god when you can play more special and rare devas, if we're talking about efficiency
The Diestro from Estalia should be added as a hero choice to the Dogs of War, they'll fit in perfectly.
ReplyDeleteDogs of war have Assasins, who are pretty similar, duellists who are the same but as a troop and the trait Weaponmaster and the Cathayan dragonsword making your characters a great swordman, like a diestro(and probably better). You have many options to do the same without copy the same unit, that's boring, and redundant in this case, in my opinion, don't you think?
DeleteWhat Eric said. Diestros are typically Estalian, hence they are in the Estalia book. Tileans have their own duellists already.
DeleteFound some typos in the Bretonnia dex. On the Sacrosanctum page it says"All Bretonnian units within 12" from the Blessing of the Lady increased by 1 until the start of the next turn"
ReplyDeleteBohemond is still listed as having the Impetuous knight virtue in his entry instead of Heroism.
Also not sure if you can do anything about it, but some of the graphics look like they are missing the white center, like some of the shields in the Virtues section, the Fleur de lys in the magic items section and the chalice in the lore page to name a few.
Fixed both bugs.
DeleteAlso fixed the shield missing its white centre, but I don't think I can do anything about the chalice or fleur due them them originally being B/W, thus making the white background transparent means it will shine through. I've upped their saturation a bit though.
Hi Mathias, the master chef halfling allows halfling units re-roll to hit with their shoots?
ReplyDeleteNope, that would be a bit strange. Clarified that now.
DeleteKingdoms of Ind, page 11 still refers to Vishnu and Shiva instead of Vaishna and Shaivi.
ReplyDelete