The VC update is a bit of a regression in some ways, with the core units working more similar to earlier editions. I've also added back the original bloodlines with their separate powers for more fluffy army list building. Other than that, the VC book is very solid, so the amount of tweeks have been quite limited in this release.
- Vampires split into 5 different character choices, each based on their own Bloodline with different stats, equipment and mounts.
- Proper Bloodline powers brought back, more might be included in the final release.
- More expensive Vampires.
- Wight King 55 pts, T4.
- Skeleton Warriors may take bows and halberds. Does not have LA by default.
- Zombies have Fight in Extra Ranks in 9th ed (representing them shambling over one another).
- Crypt Ghouls may Skirmish. Are WS2, 8 pts.
- Black Knights have lances by default, cheaper barding. No longer have spectral steeds.
- Hexwraiths no longer have Spectral Hunters and cannot move through enemies (forcing your to charge as normal if you want to cause some damage). 27 pts.
- Black Coach T6, 5+ save.
- Blood Knights no longer have Frenzy, 45 pts.
- New unit: Mourngul
- New unit: Corpse Giant
- Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshees are no longer character choices.
- Dire Wolves no longer have slavering charge.
- Fell Bats' "Cloud of Horror" removed.
- Tomb Blade added to magic items
Looks good, Solid army list :-) Will there be any chance the finished book could have a Vampire Foot knight unit as well as the Cavalry, I don't think its unfluffy and would look great on the table
ReplyDeleteI think that would make the number of Vampires a bit too high, although it would look cool. Vampires are supposed to be pretty rare, and Blood Knights work because of their high cost.
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ReplyDeleteI spotted some typos.
ReplyDelete-The Lamian and Necrarch vampires have 100pts for Magic Items and Vampirics Powers
-Strigoi Vampires don't have mgic items. Is that normal?
-The Coven throne is also missing.
-There is no explanation about the Corpse Giant's amelioration.
-I'll admit I'm probably in the minority here, but would that be possible to let a Vampire take Powers from other bloodlines? (something like up to the half his allowance)
Rest of the book seems pretty solid, and I will gladly test it... eep p this wonderful work
-Last point. Given the fact they have got no armor options, can the Necrarch, Lahmian or Strigoi Vampires take the Nightshroud?
Delete-Personally I didn't like the idea of bringing back bloodlines since it limits customization. The 8th edition system made it possible to create a vampire that matches one of the bloodlines or unique variants.
Delete-The Night Shroud gives enemies Always Strikes Last.
-Why are Crypt Ghouls/Ghasts WS2? They are technically not undead.
-I don't understand why Fell Bats and Bat Swarms Hover instead of Fly.
-Black Knights and Grave Guard should have an upgrade to Heavy Armor. Some of their models look like they wear it. Maybe Full Plate as well for ones made from Empire knights.
-The Blood Knight Nightmare has the statline of a skeletal steed.
-Regarding one unit entry for vampires of all bloodlines (except Strigoi, that one has significant enough differences to warrant a different entry), I think their statline should all be WS5, BS5, I6, A3. Dread Knight shouldn't be able to make a vampire more skilled with its weapons than Exalted Champions/Chaos Lords who are empowered on a similar level.
-Dread Knight should also grant Frenzy and +1 attacks since Blood Knights have both.
-Blood Knights should be WS6 and S4 (one below what I'm proposing a Hero Vampire with Dread Knight would have), they should also be Ld8. Perhaps able to upgrade to Full Plate Armor as well.
-A rare unit of vampires on foot that are an infantry version of Blood Knights should be added. They would be WS5, BS5, S4, T4, W1, I5, A1, Ld8 and can cast Invocation of Nehek and Vanhels Danse Macabre as a Level 1 Wizard in a similar manner to Druid Neophytes, Doomfire Warlocks and Sisters of the Thorn. Unlike those three they would be nasty fighters with decent stats, a slew of weapon options and the ability to take Light or Medium armor.
- Fixed all bugs.
Delete- The point of Bloodlines is to keep them separate, forcing you to adopt to a certain playstyle. Mix and matching would completely go against it.
- There are only the established bloodlines AFAIK. A Necrarch model with Beguile, or a Lahmian with Massive Monstrosity for instance, would look really out of place.
- Crypt Ghouls are not trained soldiers either. They had WS2 in 5th ed as well. This also makes them cheaper and more in line with the rest of the core choices.
- The models don't have any armour of their legs or arms, hence HA would not fit. However, the old metal models armed with halberds do have more armour. So I will add both halberds and heavy armour as options.
- I will lower the WS of Blood Dragons by 1, they are high enough as they are. Carstein Vampires are pretty good fighters though, hence they will be WS6.
- I've removed Frenzy from Blood Knights, there's no mention of the fluff of them even having it (skimmed it). Blood Dragons already have +1A.
- Blood Knights are the same level as Grail/Chaos Knights now, I think that's enough. Ld8 is fine though. Not so sure about FPA though, they don't have any Dwarf smiths or similar to make it for them, and they also leave their faces open (minor detail, I know).
-Understood for the Bloodlines.
Delete-Did forget that one, but the Abyssal Terror only costs as much a Nightmare and its upgrades (18 pts and 6 pts), and the Dragon Zombie has got the same price as the Hellsteed (55 pts). The Corpse Cart also costs only 55 pts.
Right you are, forgot to update the 8th ed version. Fixed now.
DeleteI'll profit you're here for pointing out other typos I saw in Ravening Hordes (sorry for the pestering)
Delete-V8 Tombs kings Lords and Heroes choices are costing either 150 or 300 pts. All of them.
-Wood Elves Meadow Chariot use Cold Ones chariots names (although the profile seems normal)
-V8 Wood Elves still have the Swiftsshiver arrows, but no units can buy them.
No worries about the pestering, that's how I can fix any issues :)
DeleteI think the versions you are looking at are outdated though, the current ones uploaded here already have those bugs fixed.
The issues are indeed settled in the Wood Elves' RH, sorry.
DeleteHowever, the TKs issues about the prices of the characters are still in the V8 suplement, and I downloaded it again to make sure the problem was still here.
Right you are, must have clicked on the 9th ed version by mistake or something. I've uploaded the correct version now.
DeleteThank you very much. Goodl luck with the other supplements and your future works. I'm only playing WFB with them. (and the V8 rulebook)
DeleteYou're better at this than the whole GW Studio.
There is a formatting error where the Crypt Horror entry extends into the next page.
Delete-If Skeleton Warriors can take bows then why not crossbows.
Delete-Similarly, Lahmians should be able to take bows (so they can be modeled as one of those elegant Japanese bowwomen) and Von Carsteins should be able to take bows and crossbows. I see no reason why a Vampire would not want to try out ranged combat and it would allow them to make use of their Ballistic Skill of 5.
The zombies pushing a Corpse Cart are also S2 for some reason.
Delete-Loremaster is supposed to be a unique rule that is only available to unique characters so it's a bit crunch breaking for any generic Necrach to become a Loremaster. I think it should only grant one or two extra spells instead.
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DeleteYea, there used to be Skeleton Crossbowmen way back when.
DeleteI also believe vampires should have access to ranged weapons when appropriate, mostly for fluff.
So Lahmians could have bows and throwing weapons (maybe even poisoned) and since Von Carsteins favour the noble virtues, they could have weapons for hunting and duelling such as crossbows, handguns and pistols (although far to oldschool for the repeater versions).
Crossbows for skeletons is fine by me, I'll add it in.
DeleteVampires with missiles weapons I don't think fits, none of the models have them. Pistols and crossbows feel more like vampire hunter weapons if anything.
Loremaster is a generic rule in the BRB, I don't see any issues with having it as an upgrade for Necrarachs.
So massive monstrosity adds a wounds and the monstrous infantry unit type? I like it. Reminds me of an old white dwarf bat-rep where the strigoi was a conversion from the thing in the woods and too large to fit in an infantry unit
ReplyDeleteThere's no rule preventing you some joining them now either, but you don't have Look Out Sir.
ReplyDeleteMassive Monstrosity does not make them MI, since that would force you to change the model's base size just for one upgrade, even if the idea itself is cool.
Why did the Wight King lose an attack?
ReplyDeleteHe didn't, he lost 1T.
DeleteHmm, I am pretty certain the 8th edition pfd is attacks = 2 instead of 3.
DeleteNope, it's both 3A in the official and the RH version. I double checked.
DeleteNo, it is 2, look at the screenshot I took. :D
DeleteLink:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3228769/armies%20projects.jpg
Ah, I was checking the 9th ed version, he has 3A there. Thanks for letting me know, I'll update it soon.
DeleteI like the bloodlines being back but maybe I've been spoilt with the non restricted 8th powers. Perhaps a pool of generic powers than any bloodline can take from? Stuff like Fear Incarnate, Dark Acolyte and Flying Horror seem like powers that any Vampire could master. The old winged vampire lord model was more Blood Dragon esque than Strigoi for example. Invocation is a core spell many would try to perfect. Just a thought...
ReplyDeleteThese were Bloodline specific powers in 5th and 6th ed, so I've just kept it like that. The Vampire you talking about I believe was a Carstein with Bat Form (which will likely be brought back in the full version). I'll see about generic powers too.
DeleteSmall thing , under the entry for Wight King in the 8th edition list , you have it down as a Tomb Herald
ReplyDeleteWill fix, thanks!
DeleteDid you forget to integrate the following rule: "Zombies have Fight in Extra Ranks in 9th ed (representing them shambling over one another)."?
ReplyDeleteIt was my original idea, but I don't think they need it. Maybe for the full version.
DeleteI kinda feel zombies have lost a lot of value vs. skeletons in 9th. The to hit/be hit ratio for zombies vs. WS3-4 is 5+/2+ and skeletons are 4+/3+. That one WS makes a lot of difference now when its so low and against average WS.
DeleteThey shouldnt be any cheaper though, Unbreakable and Fear for 3pts is pretty good no matter how you slice it, but FiER would give them a little more potential in a wide enough formation. Also encourages the zombie horde, which is kinda cool, and I guess was part of the original idea.
What with bloodlines being back is there any chance of some of the bloodline specific units coming back in the full army list. I was recently flicking through the old 6th edition army list and got all nostalgic looking at stuff like the Sylvanian Levy for Von Carsteins, perhaps certain units could require a vampire lord/hero of the correct bloodline in the army before they could be used?
ReplyDeletePlanning on something like that for the full version :)
DeleteI might add some more powers to allow that. Not really necessary in all cases, but Iäll see about it when I start working on the full version.
ReplyDelete-Neither of the supplements show the Flag of the Blood Keep option for the Blood Knights
ReplyDeleteIt's a magic banner, and since they are allowed magic banners they can take it.
DeleteI meant to say that there is no point cost for the banner. Now, It seems clear that t costs 75 pts, but it isn't said anywhere.
DeleteAre Vampires supposed to have M4? They have always, as I remember it, had M6, and you havent mentioned it among your list of changes, so I thought it might be an error.
ReplyDeleteAlso, regarding the Seduction power for Lahmians. In case of the vampire being in a challenge with the target, it should probably say that she would be free to attack other targets, since a successfully seduced target cannot be attacked by either side.
DeleteYes, they should have M6, will fix. GOod point about seduction too.
DeleteIf you need ideas for unique Bloodline powers etc, you can use anything you find here if you like:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/the-bloodline-legacies-project.14984/
It was a little hobby project of mine a few years back.
http://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/the-bloodline-legacies-army-list.17412/
ReplyDeleteHere's the actual list. sorry
http://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/the-bloodline-legacies-army-list.17412/
ReplyDeleteHere's the actual list. sorry
Fear Incarnate Von Carstein Ability is currently useless and needs to be changed in 9th ed, if Fear reduces LD by 1 under your current rules etc.
ReplyDeleteIt's cumulative with Fear, so the enemy will suffer -2 Ld.
DeleteWhat Imeant was that I think it stated the old Fear Test thing in the 9th ed description, but with Fear Tests now being removed etc..
DeleteBanner of the Barrows still references Krell. I don't know if special characters are planned for future etc, but just thought I'd mention it if not.
ReplyDeleteYes. SC's are planned for the full version.
DeleteCool. Krell is one of those characters that could really do with a makeover rule-wise in my opinion. Got some ideas for that if you're interested btw.
DeleteA Balance/Point issue: Regarding the Skeleton Archers, isn't +3 pts/model qute a hefty price for an upgrade from Bows to Crossbows? Especially for BS 2 troops. I could understand it if they didn't have the bows included to begin with.
ReplyDeleteYou are right for the 9th ed version, they should only cost 2 pts. A bow is 3 pts for BS3 troops, a crossbow is 5 pts.
DeleteI think Zombies easily can have the Fight in Extra Ranks (2) special rule, assuming they are fighting in a wider formation than their enemy. To counterbalance being hit on a 2+ by average WS 3 troops. Aslo, it's fluffy, which brings character, wanting you to actually field them for a little bit of fun... And it woud allow for more diverse themed lists that could possibly work...
ReplyDeleteYes, I will probably add this to Zombies.
DeleteA Balance/Point issue: Regarding the Skeleton Archers, isn't +3 pts/model qute a hefty price for an upgrade from Bows to Crossbows? Especially for BS 2 troops. I could understand it if they didn't have the bows included to begin with.
ReplyDeleteHexwraith really suffered a huge setback if you now have to charge with them to do damage, much due to the increased static CR in 9th ed. It was not a unit that most used to do traditional charges with to begin with, and that for good reason, even under the 8th ed rules.
ReplyDeleteThey are more of a support unit now, or heavy cavalry killer. In 8th ed, there were quite easy to abuse them using the free reform rules, and allowing them to move through multiple units every turn. They also got 4 pts cheaper.
DeleteI saw the cost reduction, but used like tht, I still don't think 'd choose to field them in that role.. They are much too vunerable to static CR for their cost.
DeleteI think that rule was what made them a bit fun and unique. Now the're more like a faster, but weaker version of the Cairn Wraiths. They also compete with Spirit Hosts for the same "support" role. The VC list already have lots of decent units that can fill this role I think.
I still think they should only be able to move through one unit per turn though, so I'm with you there.
One thing that I think would be a good idea as a general change is to allow units that are accompanied by a character with the Vampiric special rule to be able to march March.
ReplyDeleteThe reason behond this is that the 12" march bubble around the general is sort of fine and balanced at a 2000 pts game, but once you scale up, this become problematic.
This would also encourge more Vampires in the list and sort of help build the idea of a vampire led horde army (that functions on the tabletop as well).
It would open up for abit more diverse tactics from the VC players. At least the options would be there.
9th ed Mourngul's killing blow still refers to Alwys strikes Last.
ReplyDeleteSome further thoughts:
ReplyDeleteRegarding the Coven Throne, I see that in 9th ed (which is my only concern for furture reference btw), I see that the Handmaidens are reduces to Strength 4, but the cost has remained the same. An oversight, or intended this way?
Also regarding the Coven Throne, Now that it is firmly back in the Lahmian faction, would perhaps a +1 I for the Pallid handmaidens be in order?
Regarding the Wight King. Should Heavy armour be an option for him? Now he's basically gone to become a softer target than an Empire Hero, with the Empire hero being able to get a Full Plate and all. I aslo think that since they represent kings of old etc, it would not be unnatural for them to have the bestand most expensive armour of their day. Some of the models seem to back this up too.
REgarding the Black Coach, I see you mention above that it has T6, 5+ save. Inn my 9the ed download, I have it at T5.
What is the reasoning behind the loss of two points of armour here btw? The point cost has remained at 195, with a pretty substantial loss ogf survivability, and I don't have the impression that this is a unit that has the more competitive players typically selecting it.
Regarding the Black Knights, and Lances by defaiult. Doesn't the newer plastic models come with a hand weapon option? I might be mistaking here, but I thought so. Total War: Warhammer aslo seem to support this idea, but that might be a coinsidence. :-)
Loved that you removed the Frenzy from the Blood Knights. *thubs up* I always hated that. They're supposed to be disciplined perfectionists, not uncontrollable madmen.
Any particular reason why Cairn Wraiths and Tomb banshee's are no longer character options? I know that there are more options now that there are several bloodlines, but they are overall not that much different from each other, and it's not like some other armies don't aldready have more options when it comes to heroes (Orcs and Goblins being the first to come to mind). Pure Necromancer type lists can potentially really suffer a setback as a result of this. Just curious about the thought behind it.
I assume you mean Bat Swarm Cloud of Horror removed, not Fell Bats. :-) I have a suggestion here, which I'll mail you when finished if that's ok. That rule was sort of the main use of that unit, but with the Always Strikes Last rule removed, I can see why it's gone.
I think perhaps 3 Wounds, T 4 would be more fitting in the Wight King. They are supposed to be ancient and hard to destroy after all. It will aslo look a bit odd, with Krell having 4 wounds with the normal ones having only 2, and Krell is supposed to be near indestructable in the fluff.
ReplyDeleteT 5, 2 wounds.. and maybe give Krell +1 W integrated in his armour.. Perhaps the better solution..
ReplyDeleteT 5, 2 wounds.. and maybe give Krell +1 W integrated in his armour.. Perhaps the better solution..
ReplyDeleteT 5, 2 wounds.. and maybe give Krell +1 W integrated in his armour.. Perhaps the better solution..
ReplyDeleteT 5, 2 wounds.. and maybe give Krell +1 W integrated in his armour.. Perhaps the better solution..
ReplyDeleteSince this is pretty far down the list of full book updates, would you mind clarifying a few points?
ReplyDelete- Can zombies be increased beyond their starting unit size? There's a power for bats and wolves in the Carsteins, but nothing for zombies or skeletons anymore.
- Fear is no longer rolled, so what does Fear Incarnate do for the Carsteins?
- Can a Carstein with wolf form join a unit of Dire Wolves?
Thank you for any answers you can provide
- They will in the main book yes, I will go through the list and make some revisions.
Delete- Fear Incarnate is supposed to be the 8th ed version of Fear gameplay-wise. This means that if you get it, enemies lose both 1Ld from 9th ed Fear, but also have to take a a Ld test or hit on 6's.
- Yes.
<>
ReplyDeleteI think you shouldn't remove such interesting rules. Dire Wolves are something more than dogs... I think they should represent some kind of treath to light troups.
And what about bats? Without any special rule they are uniniteresting and too much under ghost swarms. Maybe, if "always strike last" is too much, try to insert a different rule. -1 to hit, -1 Initiative... something.
I don't like, as many, the nerf of the Wight King. They need to be more hard to kill, I think, and not only hero-level skeletons.
Anyway, you are doing a good work. I suggest you to insert in the Army Book some units from Age of Sigmar too. There are many good adds in the Nighthound range to choose ;)
Greetings, and good work! What you are doing keeping the Old Warhammer alive is awesome!
Federico.