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This book contains the following changes from the Ravening Hordes list:
- New Special Unit: Bastethi (war beast/wizard unit, from WFRP)
- New Special Unit: Ammut (MB)
- New Special Unit: Tomb Barque (flying chariot, mentioned in the 8th ed BRB)
- New Special Unit: Bone Thrower (bolt thrower, from Warmaster)
- New Special Character: King Phar (from 6th ed TK)
- New Special Character: Sehenesmet (from 6th ed WD)
- New Special Character: Prince Tutankhanut (from 6th ed TK)
- New Special Character: King Amanhotep (from Dreadfleet)
- Settra is more expensive, but have regained a lot of magic item power from 6th ed.
- Khalida now has Regen 4+, costs 290 pts.
- Katep gives better regen to the unit he join, gains a bonus to raising dead models. His scroll now works like a dispel scroll, 340 pts.
- Prince Apophas may re-roll his entombed beneath the sands roll.
- Nekaph has the Blade of Mourning instead of flail of skulls, added vambraces of the sun and amulet of Neru, 160 pts.
- Ramhotep 100 pts.
- If the Hierophant is killed, another wizard may attempt to be the new hierophant by passing a Ld test.
- Added Scorpion Armour to magic items.
- Necropolis Knights can be emntombed beneath the sands.
- Removed options for barding.
- Ushabti no longer have a champion option (like other construct units), can instead take an Ushabti Ancient as a unit upgrade that give a blessing of your choice to the unit.
You may also notice that I changed the menu of the blog that divide each edition into three different categories based on each army's Alignment. This is because the number of books is getting to a point where it's just not possible to fit all of them under a single header. I'm currently working to find a way to fix it so it looks less cluttered in the future.
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ReplyDelete"Poisoned Attacks cannot wound Khalida automatically
Delete– they always roll To Wound.
Poisoned attacks can't wound Undead anymore so no need to double that rule.
Chariots don't really do anything with their Javelins when Bows do exactly the same with longer range. The Quick To Fire of Javelins doesn't do anything because no penalties are applied and they can't choose Stand and Shoot. But I understand including them because the models are there.
Btw what do you think about idea that chariot equipment would be included with the chariot upgrade, so lords/heroes also get bow/javelins and spear with the chariot upgrade? Or maybe include bow/javelin also in the equipment upgrade list for some lords/heroes?
Dam, still no stand and shoot but pretty understandable because now the TK can shoot pretty well with multiple shots and volley :P
Fixed the poisoned attacks bit.
DeleteYeah, they are included for the sake of fluff more than anything.
Tomb Kings themselves do not seem to want with missile weapons though since they do not have the arrows of asaph rule, so I'm not so sure that's necessary.
Yeah, I considered it, but would worry it would be at risk of causing more archer spam, which is something I'd think most players would like to avoid.
-Is there any reason why the death of the Hierophant does not affect characters?
ReplyDelete-Tomb Heralds should be affected by 'My Will Be Done'.
-The Ammut doesn't need to have the Fear special rule since that is inherent to being a monstrous beast.
-Carrion seem a bit strong for what are essentially giant vultures. They should be S3, T3, W1, A1 since they have a lot less mass than a horse and are scavengers instead of hunters.
-Bastethi should be T3, W1 like Jaguars and other cats used by Ind and the amazons.
-Didn't you make the Great Bows used by Ushabti in Ravening Hordes be S5? That's also the Strength value that makes the most sense since there are bolt throwers that have S5 projectiles so the Great Bows would be a step below due to lacking the ability to pierce ranks.
-The Bow of the Desert should be S5 range 36" like the Giant Bows used by the Lizardmen and on War elephants.
-8th edition already has rules for Morning Stars. The Flail of Skulls should be a Morning Star due to being wielded alongside a shield and say: Morning Star. The Flails of Skulls has the Multiple Wounds (D3) Special rule.
-Shouldn't Tomb Barques be available to Princes and Kings instead of Priests and High Priests since they were originally built for Princes and Kings? In addition, Tomb Barques are not listed in the mounts section. Also, maybe Tomb Barques should only be available as a mount for Princes and Kings.
Have you seen the Carrion models? They're basically undead warhawks or great eagles.
Delete- The characters are not controlled by the Liche Priests and instead have a will of their own, unlike the rest of the army.
Delete- Fixed.
- As Mumbo said, the models are really big.
- They are meant to be more like Sabretusks, making them weaker means that would also need to be a lot cheaper, and these types of caster units generally cost around 20+ points so you cannot spam their spells too much.
- I did, it was a points cost issue. However, I could make the bows 3 pts instead of 6 pts, and bring them back to S5, which would be more logical.
- A Bone Giant has S6, so it makes sense that his bow would also be at least S6.
- Morning stars are only +1S though, hence it has its own unique wording. Calling it a morning star while it called FLAIL of skulls looks a bit weird.
- Tomb Kings are fighter characters, and the Tomb Barque cannot engage in combat, so it's pretty pointless to give it to them as an option.
The Tomb Barque should grant a bonus to casting. At 50 points, it's very cheap for giving them Loremaster which is a special rule usually only available to special characters. Tomb Barques should also be available to Arkhan and Khatep.
DeleteWhy? It costs 130 pts, the Hierotitan also already give a bonus to casting. Arkhan has a unique chariot already, it might fit for Khatep though.
DeleteThe Tomb Barque mount for Liche Priests costs 50 points, not 130. Also, Necropolis Knights still have 2 attacks base.
DeleteAh okay, missed that one. Will fix both those bugs with the upcoming update.
DeleteScreaming Skull Catapult crew are missing Light Armour. The models have those.
ReplyDeleteWhat about Nagash, the Morghasts and the Dread Abyssals?
ReplyDeleteThe current Nagash would fit better in the Vampire Counts book as he was human during the time he controlled Nehekharan Undead. He will most likely be released as a separate download with the Morghasts and possibly Dread Abyssals as well, none of which really fits into either TK or VC as is.
Delete- Well, Nagash controls Arkhan and possibly other Tomb Kings as well, so it makes sense to give him access to both armies.
Delete- According to ET: Nagash the Dread Abyssals are sometimes bound and used by necromancers as mounts, so they'd fit within the VC book.
- Settra, Khalida, Arkhan, Phar, Amenhotep, Sehenesmet and Tutankhanut should have the Tomb King/Prince keyword so they can be protected by Tomb Heralds (RAW currently Tomb Heralds can only protect unnamed Tomb Kings/Princes).
- Have you looked at the new steampunk dwarf models and this page: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_Army_Project?
- I will probably allow that in his release.
Delete- Maybe, need to check up their fluff more.
- Will do.
- Yes, the models look cool, but not really suited for warhammer. I have seen that page too actually, always fun to read other opinions about the Project :)
Aren't there already a Dwarf zeppelin in the 8E BRB though? I don't think separating it into three types would be too much of a stretch.
DeleteThere is, which is included in the Ravening Hordes list. However, the age of sigmar models do not really fit with the Old World astethic at all, and making three different airship units in the dwarf book would just be too cluttered. However, it's possible I will make warhammer rules for the Kharadrons, just not part of the Dwarf book.
Delete-Kings and Princes (unique and generic) should be 4 wounds and 3 wounds respectively, mummies in warhammer were always some of the most sturdy binding of souls to mortal remains, even as far back as the Undead Army Book rank-and-file mummies were 4 wound infantry
ReplyDelete-Consider allowing Animated constructs to only be limited to one restored wound per spell as the End Times changes made since it brought parity with the VC limit of 1 wound per casting on vampiric ethereal and large target units. That is unless your way of parity is to limit the VC in the same way.
-Warsphinxs should be WS4 as it will often allow them to land their thundercrush attack on a 3 instead of a 4 as it currently stands a 50% chance of failure against almost every target renders it too much of a gamble for a bunch of S3 hits. Also it may be a better Idea to move them back to the special slot since the fluff establishes that they are the most common of the large war constructs.
-Was the massive points cost increase of the Colossus and Hierotitan and the reduction of Spinxes to T7 to compensate for the fact that they are immune to poison now? If So I think you may have overdone it by several degrees. Most of the ways I tend to have those things hard countered has little to do with poison and more to do with war machines and test initiative or die effects.
-Kings and Princes being able to ride horses contradicts established fluff as their culture saw them as unclean beasts that royalty shouldn't sully their hands on. Unless they decided that since there isn't any flesh or fur left, they now meet hygiene standards.
-Khalida no longer has Always Strikes First (was this intentional?) and no ability to march (rendering her the only royal character that can't. I completely understand why she doesn't have My Will Be Done, but she may need a line added to Blassing of the Asaph to let her march. also Consider allowing the rule to work on ushabti as well since her city was a massive innovator in creating them during her reign.
-Giving the ushabti the option to take halberds may be a nice call back to the "huge ritual blades" they were armed with back in 6E.
Oh wow didn't even check the wounds. Settra, King and Prince lost 1 wound.
DeleteI also wonder the huge price increase of Hierotitan and Colossus. In 6th Bone Giant costed like 220p, it had 3+ armour save and if it charged there was only few attacks coming back.
- Their sturdiness is already represented with their high T though. Vampires are also known for being hard to kill, and they still only have 3W each. I'm just streamlining it with other books.
Delete- Not sure what you mean there, but I will update the Lore of Nehekhara so that it raises D6+1 wounds instead, makes it more on par with the lore of the vampires.
- It was 4 in the bestiary, have fixed it to be 4 in the army list too. However, I do not think they should be special choices as it makes for too much monster spam. They are still the msot widely available monsters due to also being character mounts, no need to take this further.
- Not really, this was based on it's stats compared to the other monsters (I calculate points for each model using the same formula, so they should be pretty even across the board). For instance, a Colossus has higher S but lower T than a necrosphinx, Unstoppable assault but lower WS and A, and no Fly rule, which is why there is a 25 pts difference between these two. Same for the Hierotitan, that's almost the same but have 2 spells and also give pretty strong boosts to spell casting.
- This was based on the picture on page 30, where you can see a higher-class warrior fighting mounted. Though I suppose that might be a herald or Master of Horse rather than a Prince. I personally have no problem removing horses as mounts for them, it would fit better with their image I suppose. Also added 2HW's and halberds as options.
- Khalida not having ASf is intentional, as she already has I9. Added so that all characters can always march (as they are not automatons like the other Undead).
- The huge ritual blades were great weapons in 6th ed, which is what are more similar too, so I don't think that's needed.
-In reguards to Vampire and Tomb King wound totals, even at 3 wounds your average vampire tends to be much harder to kill than a 4 wound tomb king mostly because rules like "The Hunger" and the "Curse of Undeath" lore attribute allowed them to reliably recover wounds. By reduceing them by a wound each they will wind up being even easier to kill especially since a Tomb King really only has one way to ever recover lost wounds without allies or being part of the undead legion. Since you left that limitation in the wound reduction turns them into pushovers who would struggle to even kill normal human characters with a decent armor save. Yes their high toughness makes them somewhat hardy but without that extra wound they aren't even close to being on par with the survivability of vampires
Delete-what I meant was the animated construct rule limits wound recovery from magic to one wound per magic phase. so any additional activation of the lore attribute on that unit are wasted. Where as the Lore of Vampires "Invocation of Nehek" limits their more unique units (the ones with large target, Ethereal, & vampiric) to one regained wound per casting, and since it is a signature spell multiple wizards can cast it resulting in several additional wounds per phase (even without counting the "curse of undeath" lore attribute). So allowing the Tomb kings to do something similar with their animated constructs (which was done in one of The End Times changes) would bring parity between the armies
-if you want to reduce monster spam okay.
-I'm not going to debate your math especially when I don't know what formula you are using. I'll just say that Spinxes should probably stay T8 since they are solid rock or metal, and ask you to consider the increased effect unstable has on monsters that don't have banners or rank bonuses (there are times where being 3 wounds over my opponent has still caused my monster to crumble into notheing)
-horseback royalty is just about the tinniest nit I will ever pick I only brought it up because you left that bit of fluff on the chariot page.
-Khalida's thing with ASF and high initiative was to allow her to reroll missed CC and give poison more of a chance to activate, or at least that was my reading of it. To even be able to inflict damage in melee she has to break through armor with weight of dice being only S4 with no magic weapons.
-Huge ritual blades were actually hand weapons in 6E the ushabti was just S6 base. Halberds would at least allow the poor sods to strike somewhat hard at initiative. ASL was a major reason a lot of people stopped using them in 8E
- True, they do not have the Hunger special rule, and they are now no longer able to restore wounds like before. If you feel this will be an issue from a balance point of view, I personally don't have an issue with bumping their wounds (and probably their cost) a bit.
Delete- In the End Times list, animated constructs of all kind actually only restore one wound, same as the TK book.
- I don't have much of an issue bumping their T (as their W count is not that high anyway). Do you feel the Colossus is too expensive for its cost though? From what I've read, most seem to think they are pretty cheap in the 8th ed book.
- I suppose one would argue that it's part of her blessing, as it does help increase her otherwise low damage output. I'll add it back.
- Though 6th ed Usbhabti was more of a case of having "great weapon but not really" (as S6/T4 was a rather strange statline) I guess one of their weapon kind of looks like a pole-arm. I could replace the additional hand weapon option with halberds, seeing as they have no suitable models with 2HWs to begin with anyway.
By the way, why is Khalida S4 when all other Tomb Kings are S5?
DeleteI would guess it's because she is a woman, and of slender frame compared to the male Tomb Kings. She is more of an agile fighter than a powerhouse.
Delete-Yeah I do feel reducing their wound would be a massive balance issue especially now when you can down a prince with a single flaming attack. If you think they'll need a points cost increase to fit in with your cost formula, fair enough. Though I always felt they were a little over costed in the 8E book.
Delete-The end times list did still limit Animated constructs to restoring a single wound per casting, they did however remove the per phase restriction so you cold zap them with multiple spells and recover a single wound with each spell.
-The Spinxes need the T8 since at T7 there are a lot of S6 melee attacks that will now wound them twice as often. And I do feel the Collossus and titan are too expensive for their cost, especially since the things generally function on hitting on 4s, unstoppable assault tends to dry up pretty fast unless you pump some serious light magic into them, the titan is over costed as well since the all of their capabilities are pretty much mutually exclusive. You can't use the bound items without giving up magic dice that would have benefited from spirit conduit and you can't go into melee without not being able to use bound items and risk your priests near enemy units
- You hit the nail on the head with "great weapon but sort of not". replacing the addition hand weapon option with halberds will allow it to be replicated (to a degree) of S6 at initiative with one of the Ushabti ancient options as well.
-As for this new question regarding Khalida being S4, my guess would also be that she is more of a finesse fighter as well. Especially when you consider the older fluff that she was the only Tomb King who's awakening was done by Asaph and not Usirian. The flurry of S4 poisoned attacks fits rather well with the whole snake motif that she has going as well since asps are venomous snakes and not constrictors.
- I will look into it.
Delete- Ah, okay, will fix that.
- I will look into it.
Necrophinx has gone back to having decapitating strike and lost killing blow on its other attacks. Is this intentional? As it does make envennomed sting more worthwhile as it doesn't reduce chances for killing blow (personally preferred all attacks being st 5 with HKB but can appreciate that some players might have found that terrorfying )
ReplyDeleteYeah, me and Stefan discussed it, and found that it might be a bit too good vs other monsters, on average scoring a sucessful killing blow in two rounds of combat against other monsters with WS4 or less, which might be a little too powerful for its cost.
DeleteAn Idea regarding Killing Blow and the envenomed sting on the Necrophinx is it could stick with having normal killing blow in its none decapitation attacks and can still take the envenomed sting at a reduced cost compared to the Warsphinx. Say 5 points or possibly even free since it can be such a massive trade off. This is just a though I had feel free to ignore it.
DeleteYeah, I'm adding normal KB back, will change the cost of the poisoned attacks for them.
DeleteHey Mathias, I've been reading through the timelines lately and as part of that I've picked up what *should * be every typo, mainly tenses and things like that.
ReplyDeleteAraby
Abdul ben Raschid returns from Nehekhara twice, in -50 and 500
2295 personally REDUCES the flagship of the Dhuli armada to splinters.
Cathay
The Terracotta Army is founded twice, in -25 and 948.
-78 Wu Jen BEGIN the magical enhancing of the Great Bastion
1642 Empress, who PLOTTED to take over
2355 Start of 120 YEARS OF war between the two
Chaos Dwarfs
-1600 an almighty slaughter that LASTS for eight days.
Hobgoblins
1881 Kingdoms of Ind, intent ON raiding.
2505 Giovanni Giuliani REWARDS Oglah Khan generously
Kingdoms of Ind
1438 few REMAIN in service as mercenaries.
Nippon
Yorimoto Ieyasu wins the Battle of the Sundered Realm twice in 2516 & 2517
2518 - THE Imperial Capital is moved back to Usaki, 2355 - Start of 120 YEARS OF war between the two
Norse
C.880 - Losteriksson makes multiple landings ON Albion.
Pirates of Sartosa
2145 his crew, who WEIGH his body down and THROW it overboard
Skaven
c500 Clan Eshin begin TO work for the Council
1112 The Skaven WARS begin in the Empire.
1707 Skaven forces aid ORC Warlord GORBAD IroncIaw
1786 is duplicated
2521 - Clan MORS Warlord Queek Headtaker
Tomb Kings
c.1000 to Present into the Land of the Dead[FULL STOP]
1248 collection is unsealed and PUT
1437 - slay many Liche Priests who are GUARDING
1681 - Nagash returns to life once again[COMMA]
2253 - 2253 - high country and SEIZES the places of gold from the Dwarfs. King Qu'a set out from Numas into the high country and seize the places of gold from the Dwarfs. The DWARFS
Hope this helps.
Thanks, that should be helpful!
DeleteI think that every army should have access to Light and Medium armor in some form, even if Medium is only available to the most elite members. Even if the army does not have the means to produce bits or plate or mail, there are many creatures with the Natural Armor (5+) special rule so their skins could be worn as a slightly unwieldy substitute. The two I'm thinking of while I type this are Albion and the Amazons, who can wear Mastodon skales and Reptile scales respectively. The Tomb Kings are iffy since that probably isn't represented by the models.
ReplyDeleteStill don't think that fits too well with these armies. Even if they would wear skin from those animals, it would not cover their entire person like it would for the creature, so it would not really protect more than light armour anyway.
DeleteLast night i went through the characteristics of each unit comparing each the pages to the army list and the summary. There are quite a few inconsistencies and even some unneeded nerfs. The Tomb Kings are objectively the weakest undead army, best summed up by the fact that units that have a VC equivalent the Vamp's version is usually superior often for less points.
ReplyDelete-Tomb Prince: The page has them at 5S and T4, the list and summary have the correct S4 and T5
-Tomb Herald: the List and Summary have A2 the page has the correct A3.
-Skeleton Chariots: Lost 1 attack each the charioteers should be back at A2 and the master of chariots should be back at A3. There are a multitude of reasons I could go into as to why this is should go back to being the way it is but this post is going to be long enough already.
-Casket of Souls: The list and Summary have it at T7 the Page has the correct T10
-Carrion: should be A3
-Swarm: List and Summary have LD3 Page has LD10.
Necropolis Knights: List and Summary are A1 and A2 for Captain Page has correct A2 and A3 respectively
-Wasphinx: As previously mentioned List and Summary have WS3 and T7 Page has correct WS4 and T8
Necrosphinx: List and Summary have T7 Page has Correct T8
Khemric Titan: Should be T8 for previously discussed reasons
Amanhotep: List and Summary have I3 Page has correct I4. Also depending on the table size (or a battle for the pass game) the Light of Ptra may be out of range from certain targets. Looking at the rules and fluff you may just want to change it range unlimited, unless you intended him to always be fighting on the edge of his ship's supporting fire range.
Sehenesmet: List and Summary have him at BS3 Page has him at BS2 also the List has him as Infantry not a Monster.
-Also unique characters tend to have the way their names are presented change between the three areas. High Queen Khalida most notably is a victim of this, but other characters have their titles dropped in some areas.
- Will fix.
Delete- Will fix.
- Please indulge me. All other chariot units have their rider with only A1. A2 is only for superelites like swordmasters/black guard/chaos warriors/grail knights.
- Will fix.
- They had A2 in 6th ed, same as great eagles, pegasus, terradons and other similarly sized flyers.
- Will fix.
- Will fix so it's consistent. Don't think they need A2 though, they already have WS4 to set them apart from the tomb guard, and no other undead units that are not vampires have more than A1.
- Will fix.
- Will fix.
- Will fix. The intention is that Amahotep is fighting close to the water as he lives in Zandri, a coastal town, so it's not too difficult to assume his ship would be relatively nearby.
- Will fix.
- This is usually due to a space issue, sometimes it's not possible to fit everything in.
Sorry for the late reply Its been a busy few days
Delete-in Anchient Nehekhara chariots were the super elite. Since they were a new innovation they were metaphorically the steam tanks of the first dynasty. As such they were reserved for the nobility and those that proved themselves worthy of the honor through martial prowess (which is why the Liche Priests don't ride them). However they remain core since they were much easier to mass produce than a steam tank and every king interred their chariots (Tomb Guard remain special because they are also capable of performing garrison duty unlike the purely offensive chariot).
Crunch wise by reducing each rider by one attack you cut 6 attacks off of a single rank of 3. Which is worth a lot more than the 5 points less a model that they cost now. Also remember that chariots can't make supporting attacks so every row of rank bonus only ever adds to the strength of impact hits. And finally since skeleton chariots don't have as much pivot (from being a unit) than other factions' chariots it is much harder for them to get a good flank charge so they'll need every edge they can take to win combat.
-As for carrion; Those similarly sized fliers also tend to have higher much weapon skills, the ability to march, riders, or other special rules giving them an edge. The only "edges" carrion have is fear and unbreakable. Fear practically useless in 8E as a multitude of units are immune to psychology or can pass leadership reliably enough for it not to be an issue, and unbreakable is countered by unstable. Fluff wise Carrion are vicious minded buggers who are trying to feed a hunger that can't be sated. Unless you intend their tendency to not land any hits (very easy at WS3) to be them feeding on corpses they'd need a extra attack to reliably inflict damage. 6E was also a very different game where every unit on the whole had less attacks.
- Comparing Necropolis knights to rank and file tomb guard is not exactly the right idea. They are more of a halfway point between Tomb Captains and Tomb Heralds. As they were battle scarred veterans of the tomb guard (Or whatever they were called before the awakening) who's eagerness to meet the enemy and confidence in their martial prowess led to them breaking ranks, then living to be met with dishonor. Having Frenzy wouldn't fit as they went on to reform themselves with the binding ritual, and since the a Tomb King's Army is almost always called disciplined (Ramhotep is a unique case), it is better represented with A2 over that rule. This way they have the weapon Skill of a Herald and the Attacks characteristic of a Captain.
- Their higher status is already reflected in their higher WS and Ld though, which is comparable or even higher than other chariot units' characteristics.
DeleteThey lost 2 S3 attacks each, and got 5 pts cheaper, which is quite a bit considering. Most models with similar stats pay 1-2 pts for +1A, so this is rather fair for them.
- What about fell bats? Same baze size and similar stats, but lower S and T, and with only 2A. They fill the same role as Carrion too. Great Eagles also come in units of 1 for a total of 2A, whereas carrions normally would have 6A with 3 models, which offsets their lower WS.
- Seeing as how the fluff mention them being "warriors blessed with the skill, power and strength of the gods", I'll concede there is some merit for them to have 2A, since they are supposed to be their super-elite. However, that also makes it even stranger that the charioteers would have 2A.
-Chariots have the same WS as Horsemen with your current rules, and they do have a good LD to reflect the discipline of their training but they again are the super-elite of ancient Nehekhara. "drilled until they were elite warriors fit to fight in the King's name" if they somehow managed to retain their above average LD they should retain their above average A. Personally I think you should just keep them at 55pts and give them back their +1A. Tomb Kings have always gotten by on weight of attacks not quality of attacks. And unlike their VC rivals who use their easy access to rerolls to overcome their troop's lower attacks And since you've kept Crypt Ghouls at A2 even though they are core and don't even approach super-elite
Delete-Fell bats are also 16 points, can easily march (capable of flying over defensive lines first or second turn), more slender, physically smaller, and are technically alive in the fluff just bound by magic. Great Eagles are WS5 with 3W meaning they are more capable of surviving prolonged combat with being harder to hit, capable of surviving more damage (and killing blow), and Stomp. Not to mention less likely to chase something off the board.
-Both Knights and Charioteers having 2A isn't strange. They are both their era's super-elite. The charioteer's are what remains of Ancient Nehekhara's best of the best in mounted combat. Knights only became available as cavalry after the awakening. In fact the closest analog they had before then was the chariot itself. Since the Nehekharan's don't phase out soldiers, it stands to reason they would have two "super elites" or at least as close as shambling boneheads can get to that.
- Yeah, I upped the WS of the skeleton horsemen as they were mentioned as being reserved for the best warriors (standard heavy cavalry stats really, minus the undead thing). The same thing would apply to the chariots, who generally have the same stats as core heavy cavalry (or worse, even). There's just no other precedent for any other army to give TK charioteers 2A each. Grypt ghouls fight with both their hands, which similar to 2 hand weapons, whereas charioteers fight with spears.
Delete- If you think they are too weak compared to fell bats, I can lower their cost to 20 pts. However, I do not think they should have more attacks than any other similar unit in the game.
- Even so, Charioteers were only humans when alive, and there are not normal human units that have 2A each. Charioteers would be Nehekhara's version of knights, and as such they would have similar stats to Empire or Bretonnian knights, who only have 1A each.
-TK chariots tend to buck presidents, they were the first to be able to take them in units (the High Elves were later given the option to get units of 3 of Tiranoc chariots 4 years later). And to this day they are the only faction with the ability to have command in their chariots and be joined by Lords & Heroes. These are also the nobility who would have had the honor of riding alongside royalty, and were the standard that all other mounted combatants in the Nehekharan armies were held to. Due to this they were drilled constantly and access to the less extravagant life prolonging services of the mortuary cult implying that they would have had a training on par with the likes of the Dragon Prices when they were alive (without ASF and MV of course). There is also a crunch argument to be made that because chariots are encouraged to have at least one rank to absorb wounds as they are the most fragile chariots out there. And they can't make any supporting attacks unlike the core heavy cavalry of other factions they would have something to bring them into competition with units that can make supporting attacks and rock a 2+ save or better.
ReplyDelete-That's a good compromise for carrion.
-Necropolis Knights were also only human when alive (although they like the nobility may have had the mortuary cult give them a few extra decades), it was their ritual suicide and embalming that allows them to also have their spirit animate their Necroserpent.
- Well, Dragon Princes are Elves, so that alone makes them quite different. Even if they were the elite in the Nehekharan army it still does not make sense for them to have 2A when the rest of their stats are just above that of a common infantryman (and as a Core unit, on top of that). As for the crunch argument, 3 chariots already get 6A with S4 on the charge (equal to a unit of light cavalry) on top of the 3D6 impact hits and 6 horse attacks, which is quite a lot. Yes, they lose out on supporting attacks, but as light chariots, they are supposed to be flankers rather than just charging straight into the enemy battle line. Sorry, but I'm not changing my mind in this matter. However, feel free to play them at 55 points with your gaming group if you prefer the older rules.
Delete- Good, than that's settled.
- That's my point as well, they only became super elite (WS4 (5 if they would have been alive) S4, T4, A2) after their death when they became blessed by the gods. Before that, they were probably WS4, maybe S4, A1). Which is why it does not fit that the charioteers would have A2 in death, as they were just normal humans.
-If you arn't going to budge on the number of attacks at least consider a points reduction, as you have compared them to other factions heavy cavalry, consider that a unit of 12 Empire Knights with full command (ranked up 6x2 to have the same front width and rank number)has 13 attacks at WS4 6 attacks at WS3 with 1+ armor save. Where as 6 Tomb Kings chariots with full command (ranked 3x2 for previously mentioned reasons) has 7 WS3 attacks and 6 WS2 attacks with a 5+ armor save. Impact hits and assorted weapons may bring them close to parity but the knights squad still costs 36 points less. While the chariots are more designated for flanking they have the same capability for that as the knights. Since as TK chariots are ranked up they lack the free pivots that the solo chariots of other factions have. To be able to pull off the flanking tricks of other factions' chariots requires the use of easily dispelled (and high priority to dispel) incantations.
Delete-I should have been a bit clearer as we seem to have different ideas of what their living stats would have been my thoughts would have been WS5, S4, T3, I4, A2 LD9 for living (as they were slightly less than a herald in combat capability) and then the death reduced WS & LD by 1 increased T by 1. And their Blessing of the Gods was the fact that they get a necrosepent. Undeath doesn't seem to reduce attacks just the skill and speed by which they are made. where as how I imagined liveing Charioteers was WS5, S3, T3, I4, A2, LD9 (S being less than guard because they were,'t marching around in armor all the time) and undeath would subtract 2 from WS, I, and LD for them since they didn't have the embalming process done to them just the warded tomb protecting their soul to a degree. If you think a human can't in an extended lifetime achieve the ability to gain A2 without the help of a deity even though it is routinely done by elves (Dragon Princes) and dwarfs (Hammerers) in roughly the same span of time you are the one writing the book.
- Well, that's why I gave them a point reduction from 55 to 50 pts to begin with. Unless you mean that they were overpriced with their original stats? Because I really can't give them a 10 pts drop just for removing 2 S3 attacks.
Delete- The only official human non-hero units in the game with WS5 and A2 (Ld still 8) are grail knights and chaos warriors, and both are blessed by the Lady/Chaos Gods. The Empire elite for instance, have WS4, S4, A1, Ld8, and it would be probable to assume the Necropolis knights to be the same. The fluff mentions them being "reborn in the next life as Necropolis Knights — warriors blessed with the skill, power and strength of the gods", so I would assume that Undeath in this case made them stronger than their living equivalent. Dwarfs and Elves live for hundreds or not thousands of years, they have the time to get their stats up to near-Hero levels.
-It doesn't have to be a full 10 point reduction, just somewhere around 7 or 8 points as multi-wound models tend to pay more for additional attacks.
Delete-Humans tend to be the quick learners of fantasy settings as their shorter lifespan often results in them being more adaptable (candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long as the idiom goes). My train of thought that the few extra decades of training that the mortuary cult would have given them would allow them to take full advantage of that rapid learning and develop their skills to near hero levels. Its a subtle but by no means insubstantial edge that the living Nehekharans would have had over the empire as the teachings of Morr forbid going down that path. Warriors and Grail Knights are also mentioned to have extended lifespans so my reading was that their extra attack results from more training then the actual blessing. While the extra Toughness and possibly Strength are from their gods.
- Chariots and war machines are always rounded up/down to the nearest five, so chariots would either be 45 or 50 pts, in which case 50 would fit better. A W3 model would pay around 3pts for each attack added, so losing 2 attacks would make that 6 pts (49 pts total), rounded up to 50 pts.
Delete- But is there anything in their background that would actually indicate that their life-times were increased? The background would rather indicate that this was a secret only known by the liche priests, unless I missed something. Regardless, this discussion seems rather unnecessary as I've already agreed to giving the Necropolis Knights their A2 back. The only we have not gotten to agree on are the chariots.
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DeleteIt is established that the nobility of Nehekhara had prolonged lifespans as the mortuary cult did provide those services. they just kept the best tricks for themselves. Settra for instance had a reign of 150 years, implying he lived to be at least 167 depending on when he took the throne. Given that he was old enough to have kids of his own to sacrifice to the gods when he was crowned this confirms he wasn't a boy king like the real life Tutankhamun. As Charioteers were nobility they did have access to those services as well. This is just me still trying to argue for at least an option to have the poor chariots bumped up to A2 by comparing them to other humans with A2. I've started separating my rebuttals into crunch and fluff sections
Delete-As for always rounding them up to the nearest five points there is the important nuance that Skeleton Chariots come in a minimum unit of 3 models. Where other factions tend to have their chariots and war machines as single models. If there was ever a time to buck the trend this would be it. This also drastically changes how they function in the game. Most chariots are skirt around the flanks using their unlimited pivot to line up flank charges. Skeleton chariots however must wheel making it much harder for them to get a good facing. Especially with their minimum front facing of 150mm. More often then not these chariots wind up having to make frontal charges especially since they tend to draw more of the opponents attention then other chariots, particularly if they have your army's general with them. The role of other factions chariots is to be harassers and support units, Skeleton chariots however can't perform this role due to the mobility limitations that come from being ranked up and serve as the front line damage dealers that get wounds through with weight of dice. Every extra attack matters so they don't just fall apart from the unstable rule. More often than not these tend to get locked in combat. They may be "Light Chariots" but the inability to quickly reform or march (even with MWBD they still can't march being chariots) puts them nowhere near the speed and mobility required to be harassing flankers. Even with the potential of desert wind you can't count on it in the movement phase as bad roll on either power dice or the casting roll (or you opponent just dispelling it) can strand them.
- I checked the background today, but I cannot find anything that talked about any king except Settra having his life extended. After Settra, it seems only the priests used their secrets to extend their lives, and the other kings were just given the promise of awakening in the afterlife. So as far as I know, the other nobles only lived normal life-spans.
Delete- So if they would be dropped to 48 pts you would be okay with them then? I could see making an exception for them, as they are, as you say, made up of 3+ models rather than a single one.
The reason you can't find any hard mention of life extension with the other kings is that Setra is the only one that has his lifespan given hard start and end dates (to allow people to make up their own characters and slot them in where they want). However there are certain things that can be inferred. The average length of reign in Khemri nearly doubles after nagash is deposed. In a time where kings are expected to lead armies and old age would severely cut your reign short when you take to the field weakened by time. Not to mention assassination of the Monarch was another favored tool from rival city states. The strongest argument however is that Nefertari managed to openly rule for more than 350 years where record keeping and the immortal liche priests would have figured something was up much sooner if extreme longevity wasn't the norm among the nobility. Vlad Von Carstein was only able to keep his open rule up without suspicion for less than 200 years in a time of much worse record keeping (a civil war, ruling an area that the rest of the empire tended to avoid, and no immortals to call him out on it) before witch hunters started to investigate him.
Delete-How about having them be 48 points base and having an option to upgrade the crew to "Medjay Charioteers" (or a more appropriate name that you can come up with, as I ripped the name from the elite military of ancient Egypt) for 7 points a model. these Medjay would have +1A and count as special unless your army's general is a Prince on a chariot or a Tomb King of any loadout.
The history section is not really clear on this though, so it could be interpreted both ways. Maybe they did not know/care about her not aging (seeing as Lahmia, similarly to Sylvania, is also pretty remote compared to the rest of Nehekhara), as the backgrund only mentioned the priest kings attacking the Lahmian court (not specifically Neferata) after they allied with Nagash.
Delete- I don't think they need another statline just for an elite upgrade, especially when it's not really justified in the background like inner circle knights or big un's. But like I said before, there's nothing stopping you from using the old rules for the chariots yourselves. My books are only my vision, I've always left it up to the players to change what they don't like.
-You have a bit of a mix up with the order of events in Lahmia and its diplomatic relations then. Lahmia was sacked out of fear of divine wrath as the Priesthood declared them abominations upon their discovery as they were made from lore out of the 9 books of Nagash. It was only after the vampires were forced to flee that they were found by Nagash and joined forces with him. And while Lahmia may have been somewhat distant geographically it still had strong ties with the rest of Nehekhara. Sylvania was considered an area to avoid before Vlad took it over as it had a stained reputation from the rule of Vanhel and a lot of wandering undead as Dhar tended to condense there. Where as Lahmia not only had a formal leadership but trade, diplomats, and marriages flowing through it. Also the reason the mortuary cult spread as fast as it did was because they were able to perform the same services they did for Settra.
Delete-There is actually something that would stop me from using the old chariot rules in your new book. There is a Games store I go to for 8E warhammer events and they do allow your books to be used. This is the reason I've been debating you to the point where I am sure you must think I am completely mad. Your book fixes a lot of issues that the early 8E army book developed due to power creep, and while it brings most thing into line with the level of 8E it kneecaps what was one of their few bad ass core choices (the others mostly serve as cannon fodder for the special and rare units to pick up the slack for). That and If I can get you to put it in "officially" it will most likely go into the battlescribe file making things easier in the long run. And if you want a fluff reason to justify it Kings and Princes did have their own private chariot regiments composed of handpicked warriors that had the honor and duty of fighting alongside them in battle (some canonically named ones are "The Golden Legion of Ramssus" "Settuneb's Own" and "The Royal Chariot Guard")
- I'm not saying you are wrong, but the background is not 100% clear on this between the Vampire and TK books and the various editions.
Delete- Even so, the point drop should well enough offset this. There's an argument for all units to have more elite versions of them, but that does not mean that they should all be included in the army book, and WS3, S3 units with 2A is a really weird way of upgrading them; elite units always have higher WS, S, or both before you start adding more A. I just want the books to be consistent.
Are there ammuts in the warhammer fluff, or did you took it directly from egyptian mythology?
ReplyDeleteDirectly from Egyptian mythology, but with background written to fit with Nehekhara.
DeleteGive Chariots back fast cavalry from the older book? Vanguard and free reform would be a nice bonus for the chariots so they maybe could get in flank.
ReplyDeleteAs the slowest faction in the game it's pretty hard to flank with the chariots. It's big unit that needs to wheel and they can't march. You could also charge with the old move spell which was big thing (slowest army could be the fastest suddenly).
I don't think fast cavalry would fit too well really; even as light chariots, turning them around would be a lot trickier than just turning a horse.
DeleteI have two questions:
ReplyDelete- Would you consider having heavy armour from the N.Colossus? I think the increase makes this model to expensive.
- Necrosphinx doesnt have Killing blow special rule. Is any reason for that?
Otherwise, you have done a good work.
- They already have "heavy armour" as part of their undead construct rule.
Delete- That's a bug, they will get back KB in the next update, out soon.
I think he is referring about giving heavy armour to the bone giant to give it armour save 3+ as in the 7th ed. armybook.
DeleteYes, byt all constructs wear some kind of armour, but have been streamlined to have a 5+ save instead.
DeleteThat said, I will drop the price of the Colossus in their next update to be the same as the official book.
What about a giant carrion, suchlike the roc for Araby, as Rare choice and character mount? I remember it was a hot topic in some forums some time ago, since something similar appeared in a picture of the last official TK armybook.
ReplyDeleteThere's no mention of that in the official background, and since they already have 2 flyers in the rare section, another one seems rather unnecessary.
Delete