- Removed chaos armour as a rule (after much discussion). Have adjusted points costs for all models affected.
- Daemon Princes are MI, have W5, cost 270 pts.
- Chaos Warriors cost 16 pts by default without shields. Can now take shields in addition to another weapon option for WYSIWYG purposes. Shields cost 1 pt, two-handed weapons cost 3 pts.
- Chaos Chosen cost 18 pts by default without shields. Can now take shields in addition to another weapon option for WYSIWYG purposes. Shields cost 1 pt, two-handed weapons cost 3 pts.
- Chaos Knights have lances by default, cost 36 pts.
- Varanguard have lances by default, cost 72 pts.
- Skullcrushers have lances by default, cost 77 pts.
- Fixed bug with Daemonic Mount having W1.
- Lord of the Storm rule is a Lightning Attack.
This update changes the following:
- Lords/Heroes are limited to a total of 100/50 pts of Powers and Magic Items.
- Added Chaos Armour: Models with this special rule add +1 to their armour save if they wear light, medium, heavy or full plate armour. Chaos armour is worn by characters and Chosen (including Blightkings and Skullreapers etc).
- Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have the Magic Resistance (1) and Ward save (6+) special rules. Do no longer get channelling bonuses.
- Models with the Mark of Nurgle add +1 to their Toughness and suffer -2 to their Initiative.
- Daemon Princes have WS8. Are unaligned by default, no longer forced to take Marks. Khorne Daemon Princes can take 150 points of powers.
- Added shortbow option to Marauder Hunters and Horsemen.
- Chaos Cultists may take shields and light armour.
- Hellstriders have light armour, cost 19 pts.
- Clarified that Master of Fate also applies to the Fatemasters themselves.
- You may take 1-2 Chaos Spawn as a single Special choice.
- A Spawn of Slaanesh rolls an additional D6 for their Random Movement result, cost 10 pts.
- Chaos Trolls have Ld6.
- Chimera has W5, cost 190 pts. Regenerating Flesh costs 30 pts.
- Chaos Giants have T6, cost 200 pts. Updated Giant Rules on par with Orcs & Goblins.
- Updated Mammoth rules for "Pick up and…"
- Hellcannons have the Daemonic rule. If the Hellcannon would get destroyed as a result of it being Unstable, treat this is rolling a 1 on the misfire table. Cost 190 pts.
- Archaon costs 580 pts
- Vardek Crom costs 255 pts.
- Valkia costs 355 pts.
- Vilitch costs 390 pts.
- Chaos Lord costs 190 pts.
- Slaughterpriest costs 120 pts.
- Chaos Warriors cost 17 pts.
- Chosen cost 20 pts.
- Skullreapers cost 36 pts.
- Putrid Blightkings have medium armour.
- Wrathmongers cost 46 pts.
- Pusgoyle Blightlords have medium armour.
- Fixed bug with Crom missing armour in army list.
- Blades of Putrefaction: If a model targeted by this spell already has Poisoned Attacks, its Attacks also wound the target automatically on a To Hit roll of 6.
- Slicing Shards no longer requires the target to test on their unmodified Leadership.
- Daemonsword adds +D3 attacks, not +D6.
- Mantle of Chaos does not work against magical attacks.
- Chaos Familiar is Wizard only rather than a Magic Item.
- Fixed bug with Soul Feeder being allowed to heal himself with the Daemonsword.
- Horns power costs 5 pts.
- Scaled Skin gives a 6+ save, costs 5 pts.
- Acid Ichor costs 5 pts.
- Extra Arm costs 5 pts.
- Tentacle costs 5 pts.
- Flaming Breath costs 25 pts.
- Bloodcurling Roar has no effect on Animated Constructs.
- Blood Fever has no effect on Animated Constructs.
- Deafening Bellow: On the turn that the character charges, all enemy units in base contact suffer -1 To Hit in close combat. Cost 20 pts.
- Conjoined Homunculus does not cause Stupidity. Cost 25 pts.
- Protean Form gives Regeneration (5+), cost 25 pts.
- Stream of Corruption costs 25 pts. This has no effect on Animated Constructs.
- Nurgle's Rot applies in the start of the close combat phase, not the magic phase. This has no effect on Animated Constructs.
- Word of Agony has no effect on Animated Constructs.
- Soporific Musk has no effect on Animated Constructs.
-I don't like the change to Chaos Armor. Maybe this is because of playing in Warhammer Fantasy primarily through the RPGs but Chaos Armor has never been more resilient than Full Plate. It has other advantages like being self-repairing and adapting to mutations but not being more protective than conventional suits.
ReplyDelete-I didn't like the -2 initiative penalty for the Mark of Nurgle and I dislike it even more now. With a -2 penalty, Chaos Warriors are initiative 2 which might even hurt their resilience by the simple fact that opponents get the chance to kill them first. Say a 5 vs 5 battle. Without the Mark, they might strike first and reduce the opponents numbers to 3, that's two less opponents to damage them. With the Mark, it might be the other way around so that 5 opponents damage them.
-Why isn't Kholek Initiative 4 like a regular Shaggoth?
-Dragon Ogres still have the Sentient special rule.
-Why would the Mark of Tzeentch grant Magic Resistance? Hating magic is Khorne's schtick and with the addition, the Mark of Tzeentch becomes slightly undercosted.
-Daemon Princes should be Monstrous Infantry and have 5 Wounds just like in the Daemons of Chaos book.
-If you decide to keep Chaos Armor then Varanguard should have it.
-Kurgan are based on Turkic and Hung are based on Mongols so rather than the option for Shortbows I think its reasonable for Marauder Hunters and Horsemen to have access to bows.
- "Whatever its make, Chaos Armour provides a level of personal protection matched only by the Gromril armour of the Dwarfs. Arrows clatter harmlessly against the dark metal, halberds shatter in two when hammered against the sabatons and gorgets of the Chaos Warriors, and even the finest warhammers can make naught but a mild dent when struck against the armour of Chaos. Such is its strength that only weapons of Arcane origins stand a chance of penetrating this hellish plate."
Delete- MoN has been considered much too good with the +1T without other drawbacks, and I do not want Mark of Nurgle to be better than the other Marks.
- He is I1 in the official rules.
- Will fix.
- That's what it did in 4th and 5th ed.
- Will fix.
- They already have a 1+ save.
- Shortbows are more common for fast cavalry, but I could see about making it normal bows.
Hey Mathias,
ReplyDeletesorry to say this but Chaos Armour rule is really bad. Same like the Gomril armour. There is no reason why Tzeentch is giving his Fatemasters no Chaos Armour wheresas Nurgle and Khorne do to their Chosen. I do not umderstand why Varanguard, the hardest of the hard Warrios don't have Chaos armour whereas Chosen have.
Chaos and Dwarf where already the most tanly armies and did not need an armour buff. As I think Chaos Armour and Gomril Armour rules are destroying the fluff and the baöance without giving any benefit. And I am saying this with having a regiment of 35 Chosen Warrriors at home aswell as beeing someone who was and is allways impressed by your work.
Kind regards
Niko
Fatemasters, just Skullcrushers, are not really normal Chosen. Fatemasters arguable could be though.
DeleteNot sure how it's destroying the fluff, lorewise grimril and chaos armour is better than regular armour. I'm looking into other ways to buff the armour without it being a better save though.
Also, as mentioned in the first comment, units with 1+ save already has no benefit from Chaos armour, so there is no point in giving it to them.
Deletehave to agree on this one. as a dwarf player, i though gromril war over the top. i understand that gromril and chaos armour are supposed to be top notch, but then again i see some real issues with it. ironbreakers, just as chosen, have proven to be REEALLY strong in combat (which is their point) - but say you are an army such as nippon, wood elves, dark elves, high elves... you have no real means to get rid of chaos chosen. sure, they have some hard hitting units, but bows become more and more obsolete - where is the point in taking archers, when they might all hit, but wound on 5 or 6 and only penetrate 1 armour (if you are wood elf). I really liked the idea of armour split into light, medium, heavy and plate, but ironbreakers for instance already had 1+/2+ and 5+/6+ ward save. they were the last unit to need an armour upgrade.
Deletemy point would be, instead of giving an additional armour, maybe change it to "non-magical attacks need one more strenght than usual to penetrate (Strenght 5 for -1 and so on)" - that would give units a proper, but counterable benefit without making it especially hard on foes. i do really apreciate your work and i know there have went probably hundreds of discussions on the discord, i know how it is important and relevant to the lore to have gromril and chaos armour stronger, but there is no point in taking a shield with a dwarfen king in any situation. you get 2+ armour with gromril, stone rune 1+, get parry with a second hand weapon or can pick the two handed without any disadvantages. the only reason really would be that you desperately want 6 armour runes on your character (why?).
I dont want to sound ungrateful for what you do, just merely trying to point out that this rule has its flaws, from a point of view that would benefit from said rule.
Cheers and thanks in advance for a reply
I have a poll going in the discord right now, your suggestion has been mentioned a few times there. I suggest you join and chime in, trying to get an estimate of how many people prefer one solution over the other.
Deletedid that, but lore wise, if you change it to my suggestion, that should only apply to non-magical attacks lore wise. that way a unit of wood elf archers would have a realistic chance at wounding a chaos chosen (now the have about none)
DeleteThat would be a bit unfair to Dwarfs though, I'd prefer to have them work the same.
Deletealso, there is no difference in the options you set out as a poll, you need to include factors like "magical attacks with str 4 do modify armour// armour piercing works regardless" - if you just switch the +1 armour to needs more strenght/armour pierce it stays exactly the same
Deleteand yes, it has to go for both dwarves and chaos in that case
DeleteIt's not the same, the ignore AP option is weaker as long as you don't already have a 2+ save.
DeleteWell yes, thats true, but doesnt solve the main complaint (chosen and ironbreakers. I'll have to think about possible solutions. Maybe someone in the discord has an opinion or idea
DeleteLords/Heroes are limited to a total of 100/50 pts of Powers and Magic Items.
ReplyDeleteCould you please add some reasoning about that game breaking change? It really doesn't make any sense, the longer I think about it - that limit was always aside from normal magic item limit. In 8th ed there were few powers that were also magic items, why ban it now?
Same thing is about Beastmen, as I now checked it...
And please, do not say "they shouldn't be as though/killer machines" - they should. They really should get into any one enemy squad and kill it. It is in their fluff. ;)
Nearly all other armies are limited to 100 pts of items and powers together, and I don't want the two already most powerful lords in the game to be made even more powerful so other lords stand no chance at all. Before, you could easily make lords that were much much powerful than even the special characters. I have lowered the price of many powers instead, so you can take more of them within the 100 pts limit.
DeleteSo... your argument IS "they shouldn't be as though/killer machines".
DeleteI think you should read more fluff - they really should be overpowered. They are supposed to cost half army cost and do that kind of work.
Now they are just like others... :/
Saying that something *should* be overpowered hints that the rules are unbalanced in the first place. There are also plenty of mentions of Chaos lords being defeated in close combat by other lords, but the Chaos Lords already have the best stats in the game, so they are far from being just like the others. Back in 6th ed, they could not take powers at all, only Marks.
Deleteback in 6th you also had more god specific items which added flavor. Sadly, you've just turned them into a bunch of magic items no one is going to use. No one ever took the collar of Khorne on a khorne guy, it wasn't worth it (and wasn't needed as the army actually had a decent defense against magic).
DeleteWhile the chaos lord has the best stats in the game, he was never worth the points, hence why back in 6th, everyone just took two exalted heroes.
I still find it very change that given Skullcrushers are basically mounted Khorne chosen, the stats still haven't been updated to reflect it.
First, thank you for all your work.
ReplyDeleteSecond, in my opinion chaos armor and gromril should not be the same, even if in the lore is said to be "like gromril" i can only see gromril as super hard material, and chaos armor like a normal fullplate with some magic shenanigan making it a second skin. Adding +1 ta is a quick solution, but i'd prefer something more "chaos-like", like a -1 to wound, or 6+regen, or -1 to hit.
Third, i haaaaaaate the point limits now on powers&magic stuff, but i understand the wish to make other people have fun too.
Still.... If some random non-chaos hero manage to kill my überpower general, it is a feat worth of songs, but if my chaos general is an average hero with average equip... There is no glory.
Again, this is just my opinion, i like changes and challenges (like a real chaos dude) and your job is incredible.
After a lot of discussion on the Discord, chaos armour as a rule will be removed. Those other suggestions would just make Chaos armour even stronger.
DeleteYour chaos general has better WS, S, T, I and A than most other lords in the game, so he will probably be able to defeat most other lords without too much issue ;)
Hi Mathias. Chaos Lord is still 185p. in the book. :-) / Regards J-A
ReplyDelete