- Dread Saurian etheral upgrade replaced with 4+ ward against non-magical attacks at 40 pts.
- Kroxigors 43 pts.
- Javelins and short bows are poisoned by default.
- Skink Skirmishers javelins and short bows 1 pt cheaper.
- Fixed bug with missing skirmisher rule for skinks in army list.
- Fixed bug with chameleons having 6+ armour save in bestiary.
- Blessed Spawning of Huanchi gives Ambushers special rule.
- Blessed Spawning of Tzunki gives +2 Initiative.
- Cold One Riders 24 pts.
- Loremaster upgrade for Slann 30 pts.
- Slann now has extra statline for Skink Attendant.
- Terradons and Ripperdactyl's no longer have Natural Armour.
- Contemplations now lets Slann choose a new spell from any Battle Lore the same magic phase.
- Fixed multiple bugs regarding stats in bestiary compared to army list.
Well, that went pretty quick! Finishing up at 204 pages, this is the ultimate Lizardmen tome, containing background from 5th to 8th ed, as well the Lustria book and several White Dwarfs.
This book really does not have that many changes compared to most other army books; the Lizardmen roster have always been fairly small, and I have not included any new units as such except for two special characters.
The main change will come with the addition of Sacred Spawnings (finally!) and the drop in armour saves for Saurus and Skinks. I know this was discussed earlier when people wanted it to stay 5+, but the background mentions Temple Guard having tougher scales than normal Saurus, and the Old-Blood having even tougher scales than them. You can now also upgrade your Saurus to a 5+ save with the Blessed Spawnings to achieve the same result as in 8th ed for the same price.
The Lore of Geomancy was planned, but scrapped for two reasons; firstly, Lizardmen already have High Magic. Secondly, the Geomancy spells from 5th ed were not all that interesting, and would only make up half of the lore with 4 spells in total. For that reason, Lord Kroak and Mazdamundi have access to one Geomancy spell each, but that's it. Anyway, I hope you enjoy version 1.0 (that is, until all the bugs are found and fixed in version 1.1728542 or something like that...)!
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- New Special Character: Nakai
- New Special Character: Inxi-Huinzi
- Added Sacred Spawnings.
- Added back Focused Rumination, allowing one free power dice per magic phase.
- Scaly Skin for Saurus nerfed to 6+ like 6th ed. Scaly Skin for Skinks removed.
- Added Revivification Crystal to the Bastiladon.
- Coatl have MR (3+) instead of Ward save (5+), 220 pts.
- Skink Cohort start with shields, may take spears, javelins or short bows, 3 pts.
- Jungle Swarms do not count towards the minimum number of Core Units that you need to include in your army.
- Ripperdactyl's have the Toad Rage rule again.
- Ancient Stegadon is back, is an upgrade to normal Stegadons.
- Terradons and Ripperdactyls are WB, not MB.
- Mazdamundi has the Itzi Grubs magic item, can use one more dice than normal when casting. Have the Ruination of cities spell. 2+ armour for his stegadon. 700 pts.
- Lord Kroak has the Ceremonial Mace of Malachite , Standard of the Sacred Serpent, Glyph of Potec and Amulet of Itza magic items. Has WS, BS, I and A 0 (since he is dead and all...). Have a 4+ ward save (and MR (3+). 450 pts.
- Kroq-Gar 470 pts, may take one unit of Cold One Riders as core choice. Enemies wounding him suffer a S5 hit.
- Tehenhauin may not ride Stegadon (as the model does not, and it goes against the whole point of his snake-based special rules). Red Crested Skinks have immunity to poison. Give regen to swarms, ignore unstable. 300 pts.
- Gor-Rok has T5, Immune to KB, enemies must re-roll sucessful To Wound rolls, 230 pts.
- Chakax causes enemy weapons and armour to counts as mundane equipment. 210 pts.
- Tetto'eko has a 4+ ward save, 190 pts.
- Tiqtaq'to gives ambushers to Terradon unit for free, 135 pts.
- Troglodon has the Ambushers special rule, have BS4.
The Book's layout looks great as always Mathias, buy you have spoiled us there for a long time :-)
ReplyDeletePlenty to go through here,
ReplyDeleteSome really early comments, what about the missing characters form 5th edition, Lota Botl and others
Also the last spawning Tzunki with aquatic and +1 I isn’t worth much for them, moving from I3 to 4 is worth something but to move from I1 to I2 is still going to be behind nearly everything, so pretty much pointless. Suggest it is +2I to raise Saurus to I3
Huanchi, giving forest strider isn’t worth much either, rather situational, can’t see many people paying 1pt per model for that, how about adding vanguard to that- fits the stealthy concept
i think I3 temple guard is not so bad
DeleteI think that's fair, I had a suspicion myself that they were pretty weak. I will give both those a boost. Would ambushers be a better alternative than Vanguard perhaps?
DeleteVanguard is immediate, ambushers are more random but yes either would do.
DeleteI was hoping to see the text for Kroak's spell clarified as to whether 'targets all enemy units within 12' overrides or is limited by the normal restriction against targeting enemy units in close combat with Direct Damage. We've debated this ourselves.
ReplyDeleteas it is said in main rule book, if you have any armybook special rule, that negate or conflict with rule book rule, accept the one from the armybook. this is how it was with Skaven spells back in 7th edition, for example. it was even FAQed with wording, similar to the one above
DeleteSkink skirmishers lack the skirmish rule in the army list.
ReplyDeleteYou offer them poisoned attacks but a blowpipe is already poisoned. The upgrade to short bows should be an upgrade to poisoned short bows. They are paying 1 or to be a skirmisher, which seems a lot, given that many units have that option for free, should they have slightly better stats, or vanguard to make them distinctive from the cohort skinks?
Will fix!
DeleteI can make it so that the bows and javelin upgrades come with poison by default instead.
As skirmishers, they do have Vanguard by default. Skirmishers with missile weapons have always been 1 pt more expensive then combat skirmishers (due to being able to fire around like fast cavalry).
Why chameleon skiks have natural armor (6+) and Oxayotl no?
ReplyDeleteThat's a bug, they are not supposed to have natural armour, only the saurus do.
DeleteAh ok, this makes sense, will you fix it?
DeleteYes, it will be updated soon.
DeleteWas hoping to see a buff to Slaan, something like the generation upgrades from the older editions. But am glad you brought in the sacred spawnings
ReplyDeleteI considered that, but the Disciplines pretty much have the same effect anyway.
DeleteThe Skink Oracle lost its Arcane Vassal rule? Also, shouldn't Inxi-Huinzi be accompanied by some sort of Skink Cavalry?
ReplyDeleteThe concept of the skink Oracle appears to have disappeared entirely - just a priest now - which is a shame I think
DeleteSkink Oracle is done, as it was really just a glorified character riding a monster in the rare section. It made more sense as a character mount to me.
DeleteI think you might be confusing Inxi-Hunizi with Tichi-Huichi, who are a Regiment of Renown of skink cavalry.
So he is a Skink leading Saurus Cold One Riders?
DeleteWell yeah,if you want :) In 5th ed, Cold One were ridden by Skinks only, but it probably makes more sense that the Saurus acts as heavy cavalry.
DeleteA Skink Cold one riders could be great. I think the conversion is very easy to make. Maybe with fast cavalry
DeleteI think skinks riding cold ones would be great. I would love to see some conversions for it.
DeleteFor justification I remember reading somewhere that the Lizardmen in the Southlands have skinks riding them, due to limited supply of saurus spawning pools.
If I remember correctly the 6th edition Lizardmen army book had rules for that.
Deletewhy chameleon skinks have no more poisoned attack on blowpipes??
ReplyDeleteBlowpipes are poisoned by default - the weapon is described in the army rules at the beginning of the bestiary
DeleteNot a big Lizardmen fan, although I have played against them a fair deal, so I won't go through it in such detail, but a few things struck me when browsing through it yesterday:
ReplyDelete-Dread Surian: One of the Upgrades gives it Etheral, which seems really, really powerful... Especially sine it also stomps. A potential 12 S7 attacks that you likely can't hit back against seems OP. even just the potential of that appearing in a game will force your hand when designing an army to play the lizardmen...
-p.185. the Higher Stage of Consiousness discipline states that it grants Etheral and Unstable, but Etheral grants Unstable and Magical Attacks by default.
Just the two things I noticed while quickly browsing though it.
Until a dreadsauren gets wrecked by a vamp with the frostblade
DeleteRegarding the dread saurian, when it is ethereal it is 350 points in rare. This basically eats up majority of their rare slots and can only be taken at 1600pt games. Sure it will probably ruin Core units but thats what most Rare entries do :)
DeleteBetween magic and just winning on combat res (happens quite often against monsters even with stomps) I think its fine (I play against Lizardmen regularly using the ravening hordes)
Should a 350 pts monster even be available as a regular option in an army list though? Even if not used, the opposing players must always factor in the pottential of it showing up... you get to the point where it impacts the game even if not used when it is so powerful. Ther is a reason most of the Monstrous Arcanum type monsters are not to be found in the more balanced army books to begin with I think. Yes they can be fun, but many of them are not very balanced as such.
DeleteAlex:
DeleteEven the Frostblade has to hit and wound and not be saved. And you can't always take that just in case, which is kind of my point...
but that's not really a solid argument as most factions will have some type of shenanigans. thats like going against empire and hoping they dont bring a Stank or Blood Dragons or terrogheist with its scream or Grail Knights. if you going against a lizardmen player and you dont factor in a potenial etheral dread Saurian then thats a you problem. if its a friendly game then shame on them but if you playing a campaign or tournament then shame on you. lizardmen are a relatively underwhelming army so having a ghost Trex is neat
DeleteIt is not comparable Alex. Etheral makes it immune to non.magical damage, and due to its high T, Wounds etc, it is nat something you can rely on damaging before it kills you even if you happen to bring the right tools for the job. It is also fairly quick, so it can to a large extent dictate which combats it participates in etc.
DeleteI had the same exact concern regarding the Mourngul in the VC list, but that Monster only has 4 attacks at S5 with no multiple wounds etc. Add in Stomps, and you get a monster that you can't really damage with Unstable either, due to it so easily overcoming all static CR it faces. The Dread Saurian with far superior stats, movement, multiple wounds (D3) etc makes it a very likely game winner on its own and then it dooesn't really matter that it costs 350 pts...
Any good army list should be based on what people can potentially do in a tournament setting first and foremost. If not, then you have already admitted that you're not even trying to balance things and then it bouls down to the player being the least fair-minded always winning the games, friendly games or not...
I don’t think we should entirely balance the lists with regards to Tournaments since no one will run them being a niche setting ( Plus from my experience 8th ed which this edition is based off never held up to a competitive setting). I do however agree there should be a balance between the different books (which is starting to stretch ever since the Elf books came out but that’s a whole different argument). I stand by my original argument of it being 350 points in rare. If you were to spend 350 points on another unit in rare it is also set to be a game winner.
DeleteBetween outnumbering and rank and all other cumulative combat reses I don’t think the dread Saurian is as bad as you are making it out to be (and since its unstable it will die quick from 1 bad combat). I faced this thing in a campaign where we made all comers lists and I gnarled by core but my lords could kill it.
I mean sure if you send core or sub par special units into it will chow them. But almost every army can deal with it either with magic or just raw numbers to tar pit it and flank.
But you sjould not be able to pay 350 points to relibably win a game. Never.
DeleteYes, any rare multiple model unit of 350 poiunts can help you win a game, but they all have effective counters to them regardless, wheter it is massive missile fire, spells that target every model in the unit or large amounts of artillery. None of these are effective against an Ethereal Surian and you can pretty much forget about taking it down in hth...
How will it die to unstable in any game? 6-12 S7 hits is more than enough to make up for any static CR option any enemy might bring.
Yes, it fou happen to have brought an Lord from one of the more powerful melee lists, it can be slain, sure, but if you have not done so, you are shit out of luck, and what does that lead to? OP melee lords becomming a must, just in case...
I f it is alone, sure you can outnumber it, flank it etc, but ther eis still the rest of the army to support it so that that never happens. In a 2k game, you still have 1650 pts to shiled its flanks for long enough that it secures you the win rather easily.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the Dread Saurioan, even thoug I think it is bordering on how powerful a single monster should be allowed in a competitive list, but I have an issue with it becomming Etheral. Most etheral units in the game (pretty much everyone) has rather poor stats etc to compensate. This thing even has a 3+ rmour save in addition to far, far superior stats to any etheral unit that has ever been in the game.
Games should not be mostly determined before models are even placed on the table. That does not lead to good games in my experience. People leaving a game with a bad taste in their mouth, or feeling that ther was little to nothing they realistically could have done to win a game from the outset is never a good thing for any game I think. It stops people from wanting to play again and that kills any hobby over time.
DeleteSpells are certainly effect against a Dread Saurian, One in particular is the spirit leech (its only ld6). Enchanted blades, flaming sword of ruhn, Pendulum the list goes on. With shooting only artillery i can think off is a dwarf cannon.
DeleteWhile I agree there is another 1650pts of units, it is my experience that Lizardmen are rather dependent on the rare to hit home in terms of damage. At 2000pts popping down a single 350pt unit will still reliably win you the game.
6-12 attacks is only against infantry and swarms ( and lets be honest, you cannot expect most infantry to kill most monster) , if fighting any cav ( or other monster types) it will only do 6 attacks which have to hit and wound, add up ranks and banners and it will start to crumble.
Glen:
Deletedon't forget it does Multiple Wounds (D3) against most units it can' Stomp...
I haven't checked the magic items etc yet, but lizardmen have traditionally also been some of the best at negating enemy magic in the game, so spells are questionable as acounter in that regard. Need to check if this is still the case though. I've just browsed through it so far.
Seems they still are. High Magic, Dispecl Scroll + Cube of Darkness++
DeleteI do think the multiple wounds is probably too much i would say on X roll to hit it has multiple wounds, but even against normal cav it wont matter if it has multiple wounds.
DeleteLizardmen do have a few items that protect them from magic effectively. Id say both HE and DE currently have better magic both dispelling and casting). Even if you now take a Slaan to now get High magic ( 300pts base), now have even less points in core or special. This is all sounding like completely impractical list to play.
Even with that, all he has to do is fail a single dispel phase. The Dread saurian is a bit difficult to kill, but I honestly think good play and using your army correctly will effectively deal with it.
With so many effective counters to it I do not see an issue
Just a quick note regarding the Dread Saurian; I can absolutely see that the Ethereal upgrade can be hard to deal it. Would it perhaps be better to give it a 4+ ward against non-magical attacks, same as the Mourngul, at a lower cost instead?
DeleteMathias, I would say that is a fair at a lower points cost to keep the game fun for all comers :)
DeleteWhile I agree that's a good solution. Now means a token cannon ball can kill it so spending 300+pts on the model is rough. I honestly think allow for the upgrade it allows for a good challenge
DeleteGlen:
DeleteMost of the spells that can potentially damage it are spells that cannot target it if it is in close combat, so it is really easy to preotect it while it first crosses the gaming table. After that, you'd be lucky to have it as a potential target afterwards, due to LoS etc, as it will keep rampaging through your llines rather effectivly. You're never going to have 6 magic phases wher you can effectivly deal with it with magic.
If its stomps were dropped due to being ethereal, that would aloo balance it out immensely. Kind of hard to justifying having the bulk to keep stomping effectivly if you are ethereal after all...
DeleteWell its M7 and lacks Swiftstride, it will easily take 3 turns to reliable to get into combat. That is more than enough time to get it off, plus that doesn't stop flaming sword of Ruhn and enchanting blades from hurting it.
DeleteSo should impact hits from Ethereal chariots not work as well, it uses the same logic.
DeleteI'd be fine with that. Seems extremely odd that anything Etheral could have impact hits don't you think? Mass is kind of the main requirement after all...
DeleteAlex: A good challenge in a friendly game that you know is coming is something else entirely than rules for a balanced game wthat could potentially also be used for a tournament. :-)
DeleteThis is adding far to many special rules for a single monster that is easily able to deal with.
DeleteAs I have listed numerous times before.
But with that logic how would an etheral creature bite down on a victim as you need muscle for that?
DeleteOne would assume that they have the willpower to temporarily form the ectoplasm into something that can do some damage, but the cue her is temporarily, as they would not be etheral otherwise...
DeleteSo if they can do that, why cant they do that for impact and stomps?
DeleteAnd this could just be a general Etheral thing really. No need for any unit-specific special rules. Not that Impact/stomping etherals are or is likely to ever become more of a general thing in the game, but still.
DeleteI assume they don't become entirely solid while doing so, but perhaps only have enough will to make claws/teeth, hands etc solid enough for a brief instant... that is something else entirely than having an Etheral being with mass that still can't be hit for some reason etc...
DeleteA lot of the etheral attacks in the game probalby represents life draining more than anything else, at least if the lore is something to go by.
DeleteThere are a few examples of Ethereal beings that use their attacks as well. The Green Knight is one of them.
DeleteI feel this is nit picking and its not really relevant as to justify an unnecessary nerf.
So if it's life draining, then a life draining stomp/impacts will still effect the unit and the strenght value of the creature is redundant
DeleteI think adding a bunch of extra variables to Ethereal is probably not the best way to go, keeping things streamlined and all that. Removing Stomps from a monster like the Dread Saurian could be pretty weird as well, as stomping is definitely something it would be doing against most targets due to its size. I think the 4+ ward would be the better solution.
DeleteYes, a cannon ball could still kill it in one hit, but you need to get a direct hit on it (as the bounce only cause D3 W), sucessfully Wound, fail the 4+ ward save, and then roll a 6 on the To Hit roll. Even if you manage to get a direct hit with your cannon, that's still only a 6,94% chance of actually managing to kill it.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think Etheral unit's attacks should be strength based at all. They should have a something like flat 4+ to wound, with no armour save. Magical resist should work against it. That would make most sense of all in my book.
DeleteThe Green Knight is kind of a special character and he also carries a magical weapon. He's not your traditional etheral in that sense.
Poor Cairn Wraiths and Hexwraiths then ;)
DeleteAre we really arguing that there should be monsters in the game that cannons should not be able to kill? I certainly hope not.
DeleteIdon't think that when they first wrote the Etheral special rule, they really envisioned anything like an Etheral Monster being part of the game.
Mathias: I imagine their scythes would give them a bonus, as they sort of do already.. :-)
DeleteMathias:besides, ignoring armour saves and being able to drain the life out of high T creatures equally effectively isn't bad at all. It's just different. :-)
DeleteTbh I think leave it as is. It's a tough model to face, won't deny that but it's not invincible and can still be countered if you creative and prepared
DeleteSo if Ethereal units shouldn't be doing Impact Hits, does that make the Black Coach redundant?...
DeleteI don't think the Ghost-Rex is a game winner tbh. And even if its powerful, the Lizardmen need it. Their unit choices are pretty shit (sorry Mathias, its no fault of yours, you are just working with what GW left behind), and with the drop in Saurus' Scaly Skin and no options for armour I think they have rather poor options when building an army. High Magic is not really all that spectacular when compared to HE or DE magic and they can't even cast any form of Ward Save on their units like a lot of armies can... It's quite rough for the poor lizards :(
Interesting statement Ben, "their unit choices are pretty shit" what is wrong with the unit choices, what do they need, how do we fix the problem? - a wider question than do we agree with ethereal monsters. Mathias did say he'd not added any units - so maybe there should be some - what would you suggest? Are the main units over costed in your opinion?
DeleteYou reference the difference in Magic to high elves, the only difference is the lore attribute, are you suggesting that the lore attribute is not powerful enough? The attribute for lizardmen means that the Slaan can choose any of 88 colour spells to add to their hand - surely that opens up all sorts of opportunites - (although it does assume that the player knows all the 88 options well enough to take advantage).
Honestly, a High Elf wizard is better than a Slaan Mathias... I know this is difficult to balance, but the Slaan are meant to be the best magic users in the game, period.
DeleteYet, I feel their Arcane magic items are lackluster and their Disciplines are not too great, most of them are just nice to have for fluffy reasons (you can build a better Necrarch Vampire with options like Loremaster [for cheaper], +1 to cast all the time, re-roll a magic die once per game [so that crucial, game changing turn], store up to two power dice to use in your next magic phase [Slaan can only store 1, and this could even be lost on a dice roll], vampire gets Regen standard and can get a reroll on it, Slaan pay for a "knock-off" regen, the list goes on... The only really good ones there are the free power dice once per turn and the ability to reroll a dispel attempt each turn) and you can only make a truly great Slaan at an obscenely high points cost by basically using most of your magic points and disciplines allowance, only to then have him insta-killed by a S6, armour piercing, permanently Hatred fuelled Strigoi Lord with the Frost Blade riding a terrorgheist who laughs at wounds he takes with his rerollable 4+ regen, or a Blood Dragon with so many exploding attacks he can cripple enemy units single handedly, not to mention when sitting inside a unit of Blood Knights. Rune, I find it humorous that you consider the Saurian OP but these glaringly obvious over-powered combos in the recently released Vampire Counts book are seen as "balanced" by you, a VC player. Just saying.
Strigoi can't take weapons and armour Ben #justsaying
DeleteOther solution could be maintain the Ethereal rule but incresing more the points
DeleteHi Phillip, thanks for the correction, I meant the Lore Attribute. Shield of Saphery is just so much better than being able to pick a new spell at the cost of the current one IMO. Also, HE get an innate +1 to Dispel, so better wizards than Slaan at a cheaper cost.
DeleteIn regards to the units, Saurus are expensive for what they do. They have very little armour with the Scaly Skin drop (which I understand from a lore perspective), but to maybe make them a little cheaper could help with this. Take Dwarf Warriors as an example, they are also T4 infantry, have better armour options, better WS, better Ld (and a nice little special rule to help with running away, not as good as Cold Blooded, but good enough), and have the choice to take Great Weapons for extra killing power, and start a whole 4 points lower than a standard Saurus.
Skinks are not bad at 3 points, but they're not great either. Not that they should be.
The Skink Skirmisher option is decent, but their range is so short due to their blowpipes, that the Poison rule won't be as useful. and 9 points a model for poisoned short bows is getting quite expensive for such a fragile unit.
And that there, are their "shit" Core options. Their Special choices aren't bad, but Kroxigors are almost 10 points more than any other army's Special Choice Monstrous Infantry units (why is this?). Ushabti, Crypt Horrors, Ogres, even Minotaurs are cheaper.
Lizardmen's good units have always been in Rare (as someone said above), why take that away from them?
@Alex Yannakakis, apologies, I did not see Mathias updated the vampire book. That combo was truly terrifying so its a good change. Will go see what else he's done to it later. Point still stands though, Slaan can be out magicked, and everyone can build a super killy unit. Ghost-Rex is hilariously awesome, so I vote to keep it. Maybe a points increase in the ethereal option would be better than a 4+ ward "nerf"
DeleteBalance between books is important and if in doubt we should limit powers not grant them.
DeleteThe fact that the slaan are out magicked by the elves is interesting, what would you suggest?
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DeleteBen Towse:
DeleteRegarding the "glaringly so-called obvious OP editions in the VC book":
1. I've argued for nerfing vampires killing power and Mathias did actually nerf Red Fury a lot and also increassed the cost a little. Read what the power now says compared to what it used to say... The Red Fury ability has pretty much been the one multiplier that made vampires truly OP. I've actually wanted their killing power nerfed and some of that has happened.
2. I'm not a big Frost Blade fan either btw. Just like that Dwarf Hammer of is it Kazador that does the same, I don't like it much tbh.
3. I've argued for a slight buff to the Core of the VC and a change to how Vampires work etc, NOT towards more powerful Vampire combos.
4. I'm also against bringing missile fire into the VC list, which is another tactical buff I don't think they need.
5. I had the exact same worries when it came to the Mourngul as I did the Dread Saurus being ethereal, but it is a much more extreme thing in the situation of the Dread Saurian as it is a massivly more powerful creature.
6. Vampires no longer stack Necromancy spell effects on top of the rest, making them less likely to be more OP in combat, which I'm for.
7. As to how I play my VC list myself, I don't even own blood knights. I've never yet used a Mortis Engine. I next to never field a Vampire on a Monster. I've only ever once used a vampire with Red Fury and that was on Konrad... I like the horde aspect of it more than anything else and that is the part of the army that I really want to see working alogside some varioation in the form of the bloodlines being back.
So I'm a bit curious why I'm the one singled out for the "OP" claim here tbh Ben. Just because I have a concern with a monster taken from the monstrous Arcanum, which is not the most balanced book to begin with, doesn't mean I'm out to comparatively subvert another army book in any fashion...
I saw it as a good thing when Mathias nerfed the Necrofex Colossus from the very same book as the Dread Saurian and I am mostly a VC player from years back. I didn't want an OP monster in the VC list and IF the Lizardmen army book needs an Etheral Giant Dino to make the list competitive, then I really suggest things are fixed at the other end first instead of making that the go-to quick fix.
@ Ben Towse: Saurus have better S and more A then Dwarfs, along with Cold-Blooded an Predatory fighter as well as a shield and "light armour" by default. Pt for pt, they balance out.
DeleteYou are right in that the Kroxigors are about too expensive though, I went over their points compared to that of an Ogre, and will bring them down to the 43 pts.
Vampires no longer has regen, it was replaced with re-rolling to wound instead (but with several caveats).
Also, in regard to Slann being worse casters than HE; that would only apply if you have a naked slann vs a naked lvl 4 high mage. Due to the disciplines the Slann can take, they will quickly become much better than an elven mage, who have no such options.
DeleteThe Contemplations attribute can be really great; the number of times where I have used up all useful spells for one turn but still having power dice left, being allowed to swap a "useless" spell for a new one makes a lot of difference.
I will also make Loremaster cheaper for the Slann so it's 30 pts. Cold One Riders and missile weapons for Skink Skirmishers will be cheaper as well.
Dpn't forgwt that the lizardmen also have access to very cheap skink wizards to support them, carry scrolls, cube of darkness etc, so they are a bit more flexible in that sense.
DeleteTyping on the phone... I hate touchscreens on phones... *sigh*
DeleteNot sure I see how the benefit of the lore attribute matches the actual wording.
DeleteWhat you describe does sound good, lots of dice, not many good spells so cast a high spell and then swap it for a fireball and then cast that with those spare dice.
However as the lore attribute is written I don’t get the fireball until next magic phase... so I still can’t use those spare dice.
Or is your point that the slaan can always use spare dice to cast Drain magic (even for no benefit) just to get a better spell for next turn?
What would be amazing would be if after casting a high magic spell, I can forget it and replace it IMMEDIATELY with a spell from any colour deck from the same position or lower in the deck, for the remainder of the phase. (So each magic phase I always start with the high spells again)
Yeah, I misread that one. I will be changing to what you have suggested, that would make it a lot more useful, while also being fair in that you cannot cast an easy spell and then swap that for a more powerful one.
DeleteSorry guys, been quite busy at work so haven't had time to see how this has evolved.
DeleteNice idea Phillip, I have noticed that same problem when playing against Lizardmen as they had to think ahead a turn when switching spells, and a lot can change in a turn.
@Mathias, I am not privy to how you do your point costing for special rules, but I was going off of having faced both Dwarves and Lizardmen. Dwarf warriors just come across as a very hard nut to crack, so to speak. But if you say that points wise they balance out then it should be fine.
@The Rune, I singled you out because you were pushing for a lot in the first rendition of the VC book, which was released just prior to the Lizardmen book, so is a good comparison when regarding power levels. What I really loved about the older books Mathias created was that there was very little power creep, if anything, manybof them were slightly underpowered when compared to the current GW Army Books at the time. I think we all need to be very conscious about the power creep that inevitably happens when creating so many different armies with different rules. When I posted that though I did not realise Mathisas had already released a v1.1 for VC (fast work Mathias, well done) and I see he has now got a V1.11, so I will go through that later. But unit for unit, when comparing the original VC book to the Lizardmen counterpart, there were glaring power level discrepancies favouring the VC. It does sound like (from the comments on VC 1.11) that Mathias has added more balance to that book now though. HOWEVER, I am still very much in favour of the Ghost T-rex, it is just such a great idea and quite hilarious. Maybe just making the Ethereal upgrade a bit more expensive will help? It would be great if Lizardmen didn't lose the option.
Ethereal Dread Saurian - yeah that goes beyond the pale....
ReplyDeleteNo Skink Starseers?
ReplyDeleteThat's just a generic version of the Tetto'eko model, don't think it's needed.
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ReplyDeletewhat about to include carnosaur as a rare choice? Multiple pictures makes references of them going alone with the army
ReplyDeleteSo why did WoC and DoC go down in their %? And Champions went up (I think). Was some stuff transferred or...?
ReplyDeleteChampions is the still the same. I went over the contents of the other two and noticed that I was probably a bit too optimistic in how much work I had already finished on them overall. All it really means is you might need to wait a week or so extra for the book to get finished.
DeleteMinor bug: Page 166 (Kroak). Left-down. The sentence "For a Skink Priest this is a great honour, an experience of holy significance and transcendence" is repetead.
ReplyDeleteWill fix, thanks!
Delete-Slann Mage Preists have the Infantry troop type but are called Monstrous Infantry in the description of the Mage-Priest Palanquin special rule.
ReplyDelete-Since it's the Skink attendant making the attack when a Slaan-Mage Preist attacks, I think they should be Initiative 4 as that's the initiative of skinks.
-Why are Oldbloods Leadership 8 when the typical pattern is that Lords have +1 Leadership over heroes?
-I suggested giving Temple Guard the ability to test to avoid pursuit despite Predatory Fighters as they have the more important duty of protecting the Slann rather than killing enemies.
-Skink Preists should be Ld5 since it's standard for Hero mages to have the same leadership that is standard to their basic race.
-Chameleon Skinks still have Natural Armor.
-Jungle Swarms should be Leadership 3 or 2. They are non-sapients beasts, which typically have low leadership. It won't matter anyway since Swarms are Unbreakable.
-The Skinks that ride Ripperdactyls are described as bold warriors and considered elite so I think they should by WS3, I5.
-There's no need to specify points limits on Sacred Spawnings for characters. Models can only take one and the most expensive are only 10 points anyway.
-Terradons and Ripperdactyls are not listed as having Natural Armor in the mounts section.
-Skink Chiefs should have access to Short Bows.
-The Kroxigor in a Skink Cohort can't attack since it is always in the second rank and doesn't have Fight in Extra Ranks (1).
-The poisoned attacks used by Skink Chiefs are inconsistent with those used by regular Skink units. Either poison used by Skink Chiefs should only affect their ranged weapons or poison used by Skink units should affect both ranged and melee weapons.
-Terradon Riders should have the option for Poisoning their Javelins.
-Kroxigors in a Skink unit should have their Blessed Spawning cost 3 points each.
- Will fix.
Delete- Will fix.
- That's because Saurus do not become more proficient leaders with age. I believe this is explained in the LM book, I was at least explained like that in a WD by the GW designers.
- That will be added as part of ItP in the BRB instead, so they won't need to pursue if joined by a Slann.
- Will fix.
- Will fix.
- Will fix.
- Will fix.
- The alternative would be to write "no points limit", but as the most expansive spawning was 10 pts, I just chose that one.
- Will fix, though should they really have scaly skin through? The models themselves looks pretty smooth.
- Will fix.
- They can attack as normal with supporting attacks. As MI; they can make up to 3 attacks.
- Will fix.
- Will fix.
- Will fix.
One thing I've just noticed, I see you have removed the option for Slaan to be both the BSB and the general . Was this intentional or just something missed out?
ReplyDeleteThey've always had the option to be both of them.
They still have that option, check the Army Battle Standard blurb on page 192.
DeleteI've read that, in 8th (also in 6th & 7th) had an extra note stating that the Slaan Mage priest with a battle standard can still be the armys general.
DeleteNormally a BSB cannot be the general. Slaan were usually the exception to this
Ah, I see. You are right, that part should be included. Will fix it.
DeleteMaybe it has already been noticed somewhere but the lizardmen made me Wonder : is the magic of metal lore effective against natural armors ?
ReplyDeleteThe lore of metal lore attribute is terrible, only affects two of the 7 spells - one of which makes little sense from a description perspective. It should be more like the beasts lore attribute modifing the casting result based on the amount of metal on the spell target (armour save related but excluding shields and natural armour)(in my opinion)
DeleteAs it stands yes natural armour contributes to the lroe attribute
Currently, i does affect natural armour, but I will change that in the next update as that does not really make any sense.
DeleteI'll see about changing the lore attribute as well, making it easier to cast spells at armoured targets would make sense.
The skink cohorts are a much better deal than the skirmishers, even with bows they are a point cheaper than the skirmishers with blowpipes, and the only difference is that the skirmishers have skirmish
ReplyDeleteHey Mathias, love your work! Your books have gotten me and my friends back into WHFB.. my only gripe is why such a hard nerf on Cold One Cav.? As I can tell they get only a 4+ save... 5+ for mount and Saurus and a shield.. that's rough.. I mean they weren't that great to begin with but now I think they're awful... any chance they might recieve a buff.. perhaps giving them light armor? For a 3+ then the blessing could reach a 2+? I am totally asking because I own seriously 20 riders and they're going to waste away because I can't justify using them...
ReplyDeleteHi, with the sacred spawning at a 3+ save they are only 1 AS worse off than in 8th ed, but also 10 pts cheaper with spears so you can field plenty more of them (14 in 9th ed vs 10 in 8th ed for the same price). Light armour would not really fit since the models don't have it. That said, feel free to houserule it in at an additional 2 pts per model if you wish :)
DeleteThanks for the reply! I won't lie my opinions are purly from reading stats on paper and not using them in game.. I will be fielding them as you intended to see how it goes.. I played the other night with your Lizzie book and I will say as a 10 years + Lizardmen player I enjoyed it immensely A+. You've made the LM into one of the most flexible armies imo. Can't wait to see your work on WoC and DoC. Random question but i see you incorporate some Age of Sigmar stuff into the old world, any chance some AoS factions could see books? Perhaps the Idoneth Deepkin? They would finally scratch that Fishmen itch I've had for years of GW teasing them.
DeleteGlad you like the rules!
DeleteNo plans for Deepkin as such as the moment, and they probably would not be based around elves if I made such rules for them. We'll see in the future though.