- Magic scales better in larger battles, so you now roll 2D6 for each 2000 pts you play, so at 4000 pts you roll 4D6, 6000 pts you roll 6D6 and so on.
- Spells may be taken in duplicates if no other spell available, which will benefit armies like Orcs and Goblins in larger battles.
- Ice Attacks apply to all models in base contact, not just enemies. Causes Always Strikes Last rather than -1I in close combat.
- Characters on foot may use Vanguard if joining a unit with the Vanguard rule.
- Barding gives an additional -1 to movement when charging, pursuing or fleeing.
- Characters are not allowed to join a unit made up of a Troop Type with a higher Unit Strength then his own Troop Type, unless specified. This means you cannot put a goblin hero in a unit of trolls for example, or a cavalry model with monstrous cavalry. This solves the issue of allocating hits in these situations, plus it looks fairly odd to have the all-important character be the smallest model in the unit anyway.
- Obstacles no longer stop cannon balls (which solves the issue of small fences of hedges blocking them, as well as said obstacle being destroyed, regardless of size).
- Volley fire needs Line of Sight from at least one model in the unit (so you cannot fire at completely unseen targets)
- Monsters and Handlers special rule has been replaced with Mixed Unit which also covers units like Slaves with slavemasters, Salamander Hunting Packs, Giant Rats etc. Removed Monster reaction chart (which was mainly meant for ridden Monsters to begin with, and would not really make all that much sense to begin with for many monsters).
- Swiftstride have versions depending on the unit's Movement. At M7 or more, it works as before. At M6 or less, the model roll 3D3" when charging, and 3D6, discarding the lowest result, when fleeing or pursuing. Added Swiftstride to MI and Mo.
- Replaced Sea Creature with Aquatic.
- Clarified that Okkam's Mindrazor affects armour saves.
- Clarified that characters who are not Ambushers may not join Ambushers (if deploying as such).
- Fight in extra ranks applies in all turns, even when charging. An exception for this is made for spears and pikes, which works as before.
I know there are some comments that I have not responded to yet, mainly concerning changing certain spells and lores. This will be looked at more closely for future updates as that warrants some discussions and probably making new magic cards (which is planned). This update is mainly about clarifying certain rules, and fixing things already discussed and agreed upon with the community.
And a quick note on the WoC book: it's still being work on, albeit fairly slowly. The main sections are done, but I still have about 200-300 pages of additional background from the various source books to edit into the already existing material. The book is currently up to 226 pages, but will mostly likely be closer to between 270-300 pages when finished, making it the longest book yet.
200-300 pages of additional background.
ReplyDeleteI wish you good luck on your spelunking trip.
Hofuly your reserch wil also help your Daemons of chaos project go faster.
Thank you, yes the DoC book should be a bit quicker to finish after this, as much of the material is shared between the two books.
DeleteNo more goblin hero in a unit of trolls ?
ReplyDeleteWith stupidity and a leadership of 4, they will have to stay very close to the general.
I think that trolls will need a big drop of their cost to be played now...
You can put a gobling on a giant spider to join them though, or just keep them close to the general offcourse...
DeleteYup I though about that point just after posting. You can use heroes on giant squig or black orc on gore-grunta too.
DeleteAnyway, this a sensible point increase for each troll unit (+50 pts for either a spider, a squig or a gore-grunta) which were already a bad/meh rare unit.
They have the same price as a rat ogre with -2 I, -1 Ld, not a special unit (but a rare one), no frenzy, stupidity and at least a 80 pts packmaster to prevent stupidity one turn in two (Ld of 7 for a forest goblin boss and 6 for a night goblin).
Anyway they have regeneration (nerfed version compared to 8th) and vomit (still a good ability) and can be river trolls or stone trolls for 10 pts more (but who will pay 45 pts/miniature for a so unreliable rare unit ??)
I still think that this is too costy.
The problem can be smoothed by making them special again but I don't think it will solve the case...
(black orc on gore grunta is only a lord choice anyway)
DeleteI can see about their points cost, but keeping them close to the General should not be that huge an issue really.
DeleteThey will most likely be moved back to special though as O&G will get two new units in their next update.
Two new units ??
DeleteWhat a teaser !!
Maybe some forest goblins skirmishers ?? ^^
Somthing from aos gloomspite gitz release I would guess.
DeleteThe armoured squig hoppers with spears don't need a new unit, just optional upgrades.
The big troll (dankhold trogoths) could be a possibility, but they could also use troll hag rules.
The goblins with snuffla squigs could be a candidate, as could the inclusion of the fungus cloud fanatics.
The group of 5 night goblin shamans could function as a coven unit (similar to warlocks, sisters of thorn or horrors)
Such an influx of options
I hope one of the units is my Night Goblin Monster Hunter unit (see forum)....
DeleteSeems like good list of sensible changes as far as I can see Mathias.
ReplyDeleteWhy not 1D6 of magic wind for each 1000 army points ? I often play 3000 pts battle and I think it will balance the magic (like the Tomb king arch, the +d3 becoming less overpowered). In the case of 3d6 wind of magic, dispels dices can be made as the highest+lowest.
ReplyDeleteWell, good idea anyway
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DeleteWell this is a good idea to make the system more progressive.
DeleteAnyway, has the power pool limit be canceled ?
look page 119
ReplyDeleteYou mean the blank page (118) ?
DeleteThanks, fixed!
DeleteI like all the changes as well, all of them make sense imo
ReplyDeleteFantastic all!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat about characteres who joins scout units. They must have this special rule, havent they?
More great changes – they are becoming more and more subtle each time:
ReplyDeleteThe Mixed units rule I think needs a little clarifying. You’ve not extended the mixed units to monstrous beasts and left monsters and handlers for the monsters, so this mixed rule also applies to the Hydra which implies that the handlers are on separate bases, that is not true for the latest incarnations of the Hydra and the Kharibdyss – shouldn’t be too hard to model I suppose
There is no consequence of losing the handlers other than the possible drop in Leadership. I am not comfortable with the handlers travelling at the pace of the unit for units other than Monsters. (think Albion war hounds…) For non-monsters I think they need an ability to “Release the pack”.
Suggest the following is added:
Mixed units that do not have a Monster as the base unit move at the pace of the slowest model.
If handler within 6” the unit can use the handler’s leadership -1 and can move normally
If the handler is not within 6” (including being dead) the unit will move as quickly as possible towards the nearest enemy charging if possible. If they have no visible targets they will reform to face the closest foe. (like giant rats).
Release the pack. The handlers direct and then release their creatures. They must declare a charge and can move at the unit’s normal rate. The handler cannot charge and must follow as quickly afterwards as they can. If the handler reaches the pack at a later point then they rejoin the unit.
I think slaves can act in a similar fashion but need a separate rule because they can’t be released. There are also a lot more slave units than there were in official 8th – so many that I feel they should be specified in the BRB (also think skaven slaves should have a handler)
Slavers go in the back rank and the unit uses their leadership. The unit moves at the pace of the slowest model. If the slave unit loses in combat the slaver can kill one of the slaves to motivate the unit. Each killed slave reduces their combat resolution losses by 1. The slaver can kill up to three slaves in each combat.
Should the slaver die then the unit must test for panic at the start of each of their turns.
Introducing the table from the Dark elf book might be good – with the minor adjustment for the skaven slaves that they don’t join the other side, but just run away.
I'd rather not overcomplicate it by making it so that units split in two and the like. For certain units that are character this is more okay is it comes with a higher cost, but being able to take a 40 pts unit of war dogs that suddenly becomes two chaff units would make it very open to abuse.
DeleteFor the slave units themselves, I think making this work on a unit basis is preferable. Dark Elf slaves are of a different race, so need a handler to push them ahead, whereas skavenslaves are often just subjugated clanrats from previous battles, who can work on their own (not opposed to them having a slaver as such, I just don't think it's really needed).
Your argument that the 40 pts unit shouldn't split into two units is a little weak given that that is existing rules for albion war dogs :-)
DeleteI know, planning on giving them the Mixed Unit rule to streamline them in their next update ;)
DeleteThe no characters in larger units is going to cripple trolls. Suggest that those units that have them can add a handler to the unit (of the same race as the army general) (using the mixed unit rule). Or they have a beastmaster style character added to the list.
ReplyDeleteOkham mindrazor, interested as to why you came down on the side of it affecting armour saves, I would have set it to saves are taken at the normal strength plus weapon bonuses, because the unit isn’t actually being hit harder, they just think they are, and the armour will protect to the same degree regardless of what they are thinking.
The inclusion of the text about duplicate spells doesn’t flow very well from the previous two paragraphs, you have two bullets of exceptions, then some text then basically a third exception. The text should move above the bullets and your new rules moved to a bullet – to make three exceptions to the rule that a spell can’t appear more than once in an army.
In the special rules there is a space missing between loremaster and magical attacks
Swarms are still in need of attention – they just don’t function on the table top as you’d expect
Grapeshot is still about as effective as firing actual grapes
As I now read it look out sir from template weapons when in a unit of the same troop type is automatic (not a 2+) so a vampire can no longer be shot out of a unit of zombies.. but if they are a different troop type then they get no protection.
If this is the case then generally this is going to mean more protection for characters, however the skaven on his pox rat is stuffed and needs a special rule. Right now he can be shot by cannons and stonethowers as if he was not in a unit and all missile fire at units he is in hits them on a 4+… he’s not going to last long, and I can’t imagine anyone fielding one as a result
Still need some magic items related to ice and lightning attacks.
Suggested:
The Crackling hammer – gives lightning attacks
The Frostbite axe – gives ice attacks
The Hearth broach – immunity to ice attacks
The Earthing Standard – unit immunity to lightning attacks
Banner of the Sun – unit immunity to Ice attacks
Not really; if you put your Trolls close to the general, it has no effect. If you plan on playing them on the flanks, you do need to invest in taking another character to put in the unit, yes. I don't think they need a whole new character choice for this purpose.
DeleteTechnically, it should not effect armour, no. However, only giving a To Wound bonus is not really going to spell worth taking at its 18+ casting value. It was FAQ'd by GW that the spell affects armour as well.
I'll see about revising the text order.
Will fix.
Will look into Swarms as well, question is if they should have more wounds though, so they are very easy to kill, but will take a long time doing so. Thinking T1, W10 for rats and tomb swarms, maybe W8 for jungle swarms and such? I don't want to overcomplicate it by having too many sizes.
Grapeshot is pretty bad I agree, but it's mainly used to shot at fast cavalry and the like before they charge in. Auto-hit is not a good idea as that is too good against skirmishers and the like. Rolling more artillery dice makes it too similar to the helblaster imo.
Adding a look out sir to cavalry in infantry units would be pretty weird though (try push a horse out of the way!). Not sure if there's a good way to solve the particular issue of the pox rat really. It might be a choice best saved for when you know you won't be facing too much missile troops or templates (or stick a decent ward save on him to make it more wasteful to fire at the character - you'll cause a lot more wounds on the unit).
I don't want to add more magic items just to fill a certain quota of special rules though. Both ice and lightning attacks are pretty rare as is.
yes you can put Trolls near the general, but if the general dies. The extra character is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, which is why I would prefer the option to give the unit a handler and use the mixed unit rule. They are also overcosted but that is a separate issue - I'd give them natural armour 6+ (enabling the stone troll to go to a 4+) and drop their points.
ReplyDeleteIt is a to wound bonus, but it is a pretty enormous one, from 4+ maybe 5+ when played on humans or elves to a 2+. Could reduce the casting value to compensate.
Swarms should affect the fighting potential of the unit they face (Like bat swarms do) and should be a lot more resilient to missile fire than they currently are, Move to decrease T and increase W also makes a lot of sense. I agree you want to keep it relatively consistent. Snotlings and nurglings can stay at T2 (the undead spirit swarms should be treated differently - the use of the term swarm for them is really a hack in the system).
Grapeshot - use the flame template just like back in 4th ed.
I would not add a look out sir for cavalry in Infantry, but I would add something to JUST the pox rat. The problem isn't so much the rat, more that the whole army has no suitable unit for them to join, so in this very specific case I'd just say that when it joins a unit it adopts the troop type of the unit it joins (but remains US4)and is cavalry when out on its own.
Lightning and ice attacks would be less rare if there were magic items that bestowed them :-)
Your thoughts on my comments on Mixed units / slaves?
Have any of the army books been changed in regards to ice attacks? And if not which units will end up getting them?
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the post about trolls, I don't think they are bad for their points. They have S5 and regeneration. The downside has always been their low LD and stupidity but both can be negated by keeping them near their general.
I think they should be moved to special though
DeleteNone as of yet, it's will be mainly Kislev, Norse and Ogres who get them.
DeleteTrolls will be moved to special in their next update.
Regeneration is not as good as in 8th, it basically only works when you are winning, it doesn't help you win, it occurs AFTER combat resolution, so can't be used like an armour save, and if you break and run , chances are you are run down before you get to use it.
DeleteI have both used and fought trolls quite a bit in 9th, they are definitely not as good as in 8th and I think need some love. I'd drop the cost a bit and give them natural armour (6+)
Not sure about the natural save as they do not all have scales, might drop them a bit in pts though.
DeleteReally thick leathery skin.... Bears don't have scales either and they have a 5+ natural armour save....
DeleteI tend to agree with Phil here. It's not even called Scaly Skin any longer either. :-) Leather can be for tougher than people think (why leather armour qualifies for light armour in the first place).
DeleteI suppose natural armour makes sense for trolls. Don't think they would need any drop in points on top of that though.
DeleteOnce you have added ice attacks for Yhetees Matthias, will this replace their frost aura? I assume so. Definitely a nice change that will probably convince me to get a box of these for my ogres.
So Looking forward to WoC - I think it will be your best work yet.
ReplyDeleteNot making any promises there, but it's looking pretty good so far ;)
Deleteif you play 2500 points, using 4d6 for the winds of magic are not too many?
ReplyDeleteYou still roll 2D6 at 2500 pts, the rule says: "At the start of each Magic phase, the casting player determines the strength of the Winds of Magic by rolling 2D6. This number is increased for each 2000 points you increase the game size with after 2000 points, so at 4000 points you roll 4D6, at 6000 points you roll 6D6 and so on."
DeleteI was a bit unclear about it in the post, apologies.
so you only use 4d6 at 4000+ points?
ReplyDeleteif that's the case, I apologize, because by translating I understood that every step of 2000 points added 2d6
A general question: Who uses the latest version for Break Tests in Multiple Combats? Based on the complexity of it, I suspect there could be many that still use the simpler method from 8th. Just curious.
ReplyDeleteI use the new one, then again last few games haven't needed it
DeleteWe've tried a bit with new rules, and players here suggest that a -2 to movement for barding is too much, expecially when pursuing. Maybe could be fair enough for elven steed (that we imagine light and graceful) opposed to Chaos steeds or heavy Warhorses.
ReplyDeleteIt's only -1 when pursuing, as you are not using your Movement value at that point. The -1M only applies when actually using your movement value.
DeleteSo an empire knight, on a barded horse. normal horse moves 8. This knight moves 7, Marches 14, Charges 7 + 2D6-1, pursues 3D6-1, flees 3D6-1.
ReplyDeleteone benefit is that it really helps the medium cavalry, the kislev winged lancers, the unbarded Black knights, the Estalian Caballeros, unbarded Mamelukes etc, they are now clearly faster, before the difference wasn't worth the loss of that save
I know this is nitpick, but would it be possible to format the Lores of Magic pages of the rulebook for the Lore Attribute to be more easily distinguished from the second column of spells? I think this is really better done in the Army Books.
ReplyDeleteThat will be done later on once all the graphics are in place :)
Delete