Monday, 29 February 2016

Ravening Hordes: Empire out now!

The first of the Ravening Hordes lists contain the army list itself, as well as all unique army rules collected together with magic items and magic lores, essentially all you need to play the game. They will not contain any special characters and most of the new units, which will have to wait until the full book is out. The Empire book contains several "new" old units, with more coming in the finished book and following expansion.

I'm going to try and finish one Ravening Hordes book every week in the coming months, so you can get playing with your old armies as soon as possible. After all official books have gotten their updates, I will update all my previous books to 9th ed, but they should be very much playable as is already.

This includes rules for both 8th and 9th ed, and as you can see, the difference in the army lists is very small between the two for maximum compatibility.



Hope you enjoy it! Next week: High Elves!

73 comments:

  1. A bit sloppy but that's what prototypes are for. Time to list problems:
    *Why does 'Short and Nimble' from the Halflings only help against infantry? The Halflings army book has it help against all close combat attacks as long as the model isn't riding something.
    *The White Wolf hammer needs a little clarification because it could be misconstrued as granting +3 strength when charging and +1 at all other times.
    *You've forgotten the weapon profile of the brace of pistols with repeater pistols.
    *The Mace of Helstrum still has the amendment saying that its special attack has the always strikes last special rule.
    *The last sentence of the paragraph explaining what the griffon standard does is missing its period.
    *The Ring of Volans tells the player to generate a spell instead of choose one.
    *Generals and Captains are listed as being equipped with light armor in their options section.
    *When replacing a Grand Masters horse with a Demigryph, it isn't clear if the Demigryph keeps barding or not but I assume it does. Demigryphs should also be listed in the mounts section.
    *Why can't swordsmen and spearmen be equipped with medium armor? Halberdiers can and I know you're big on the equipment being represented in the model but a little conversion should fix that.
    *Why can't Greatswords be equipped with full plate armor? Some people model their Greatswords that way.
    *Foot Knights need a points increase. For one point more than Greatswords (assuming all upgrades are taken), they are stronger and wear better armor.
    *Halflings can be equipped with short bows? It's normal bows in the halfling army book.
    *I'm glad you removed Ogre Charge because the only way I could think of it working is through this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORCes7h8Nhs (skip to 17:19) but why are they not equipped with light armor by default? Ogre culture involves wearing a gut plate to protect your guts which has always been represented by ogres being equipped with light armor.

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    1. Just pitching in here - the new wording on The End is Nigh! might need som clarification on whether you're allowed to sacrifice fewer models than your D3 roll - or if you may roll and then sacrifice none at all because of an unsatisfying result.

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    2. You are absolutely right, shows I should not be up to 3 AM working on rules! I've fixed all those things and uploaded them now.

      As for greatswords and full plate in 9th ed - the most heavily armoured models were the 6th ed ones, and they lack armour on both right arm and leg, as as helmets. Compared to the other units that have full plate, they have heavy armour. Their save is still the same as in 8th ed though, so it's not like they become worse.

      In the fluff, it's said that halberdiers sometimes wear heavier armour to offset their lack of shields, whereas spearmen and swords only wear light armour.

      Imperial Ogres often wear imperial clothing rather than gut plates, hence they do not have armour by default.

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    3. *The profile of the Brace of Pistols with a Repeater Pistol is still missing.
      *The Imperial Griffon for a General and Wizard Lord to ride costs 24 points. Absurdly under-costed.
      *It still isn't clear if a Demigryph ridden by a Grand Master has barding. Demigryphs still aren't in the mounts section as well.
      *Halflings still can only take short bows instead of bows. Also, why are they missing Forest Strider?
      *Imperial Ogres have the Impact Hits special rule which is already granted by being Monstrous Infantry.

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    4. *Imperial Ogre Brutes are initiative 5.

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    5. Fixed those bugs as well, not yet uploaded.

      It says barded Demigryph now.

      Halflings will have short bows in their book as well, just have not updated it yet. Forest Strider currently does not really do anything, since they are Infantry, but I will probably change the rules for normal forests a bit in the BRB.

      MI does not have Impact Hits by default.

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    6. What do you think of making Huntsmen able to replace their bows with Handguns or Crossbows and giving the champion the ability to replace a Handgun with the same options available to handgunners?

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    7. Maybe it should also be possible to put a Grand Master on a Gryphon. Also, the Luminark of Hysh and the Celestian Hurricanum should be made separate entries again because it's currently possible to put a Light Wizard on a Celestian Hurricanum or a Celestial Wizard on a Luminark of Hysh.

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    8. There should also be a character model that is basically a lower ranked version of a Grand Master. WS5, BS3, S4, T4, W2, I5, A3, Ld8 as a statline. They have Immunity (Panic) and Master of Battle. Maser of Battle should then be modified so it grants the models immunities to its unit.

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    9. Maybe change Strider so that it treats terrain as open for the purposes of movement and dangerous terrain tests. That means that infantry with Forest Strider can march through forests.

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    10. - It does not really fit with the fluff though, since it specifically mention them using bows. The exception would be Hochland Bergjaegers, but they will probably appear as a unit in the expansion instead.
      - Gryphons cannot join units, which is the whole point of Grand Masters.
      - That would mean 6 separate entries in the book, which would be crazy. I'll add a paragraph detailing the limitations depending the lore you choose.
      - You mean like a Seneschal? I don't think that really adds much, it would just be another captain that is immune to Panic instead of boosting break tests.
      - Will do!

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    11. -If you want to maintain the supportive nature of a Grand Master then make it that a Grand Master on a Gryphon grants Immune to Psychology to all units within 6". I also think Grand Masters should be able to go on foot so that players can have one join a unit of foot knights.
      -Regarding the arcane battle altars, where did you find the rules? I googled the Hunt guys name and couldn't find it. Also, your use of 6 means that two lores are missing. If the Lore of Fire is one of the lores that is missing, the most fitting battle altar would be the steam tank where the riding wizard can cast a bound spell to amp the power by 1 or 2 (which doesn't affect the chance of the boiler having a mishap).
      *The Cult of Ulric can include both empire captains and seneschals so I see no reason for that to not be included in the Empire army book.

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    12. - Grandmasters on Griffons still does not fit with the fluff. It also takes away from the General's role as a Griffon-mounted character. The Foot Knights are Reiksguard which are led by Kurt Helborg, so another Grand Master joining them would not fit.
      - Hunt's rules are posted on Chaos Dwarfs online. The official fluff for them by Josh Reynolds does not have battle altars for for Life and Beasts.
      - The Cult of Ulric is an exception to this since you have the Teutogen Guard on foot, and the Seneschal is essentially a hero version of that unit. At other times you might as well take a captain.

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  2. ouuu yeaaaaa!!!

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  3. Vazalaar comments:

    8th edition comment:
    I like it! A very solid job, currently we use the Furion rules modification and armybooks.
    But I think this Empire modification will replace Furions replacement.

    I think you forgot to add the Pike rules in the 8th ed Empire list.

    Things I would like to see added for the 8th edition taken from Furions updates:
    Witchhunter specializations, the Holy Icon and Sigmars blessing magic items.

    I miss the White Cloak of Ulric, Why did you remove it?

    You changes are imo the best Empire modifications for 8th edition to date!

    Looking forward to your next update!

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    1. Thanks!

      Pikes are an upgrade for spearmen, so you can use it. I need to add them to the Imperial Armoury in the 8th ed book though.

      I've not looked into any Witch Hunter specialisations though, maybe for the full release.
      What magic items are those? If you mean the Holy Relic and Sigil of Sigmar, these can already be taken as common magic items (4+ ward save and MR(1)).

      The Cloak of Ulric will be included in the Cult of Ulric book instead, it fits better there.

      Glad you like it!

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    2. (Vazalaar)

      Yes, I meant Pikes needed to be added to the Imperial Armoury.

      Sigmar's Blessing:Enchanted Item, 35 pts. The character gains +1 to its strength, toughness and weapon skill.

      Holy Icon: Enchanted Item, 35 pts. Warrior pries or Archlector only. The bearer and any unit he joins can use the re-rolls to hit from hatred special rule in first and second "round" of combat.

      I quite like the Sigmar's Blessing item.

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    3. (Vazalaar)

      Yes, I meant Pikes needed to be added to the Imperial Armoury.

      Sigmar's Blessing:Enchanted Item, 35 pts. The character gains +1 to its strength, toughness and weapon skill.

      Holy Icon: Enchanted Item, 35 pts. Warrior pries or Archlector only. The bearer and any unit he joins can use the re-rolls to hit from hatred special rule in first and second "round" of combat.

      I quite like the Sigmar's Blessing item.

      Edit:

      Can you also add a rules addition for 8th. I mean I prefer 8th instead of your 9th ed. changes, but I do love the changed magic items you did for 9th.

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    4. Well, those two items have never been part of the official Empire book, so I'm not really planning on adding them when there are so many official ones already.

      Not sure what you mean in your last paragraph, there are already versions posted for both 8th ed 9th ed, so you can choose the one you prefer.

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    5. (Vazalaar)

      No problem if you don't add those two items. It just thought it fitted nicely with the lore.

      Sorry, I didn't explain it well. In your 9th Edition Beta rulebook your list of Magic items is very nice. It is much better than the official 8th edition. What I wanted to ask was that it was possible for you to make a smallish update for 8th edition that adds the reworked magic items list you did for 9th edition.

      While I applaud your efforst with 9th, I am in the camp that thinks that 8th edition was the Warhammer edition and that it only needs a small bit of finetuning instead of big overhaul.

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    6. Well, you could just use the 9th ed items for 8th ed, as long as you get your gaming group to agree on it :)

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  4. Is it a bad idea for letting the greatswrods had great weapons alone and give the reiks foot knights halberds instead???

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    1. I think I will remove GW from them, and just have them with swords and shields.

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  5. And any plan for the war wagons?
    i hoped you ll include them in:(
    Beside this i LOVE your work thank you for evrything rly!!!!

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    1. Or it will be in an expansion kinda thing?

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    2. The War Wagon will be in the expansion, yes.

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  6. Hello !!!

    As always, your work is simply amazing !!!!!!

    How can you do that ? I think I will create a cult to honour you XD

    Just two question :
    - What is the font you're using for the name of te armies (the first page) ?
    - Can you send me all your armies books by my gmail adress ?

    Thanks you so much and just keep going,
    You're the best !

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    1. I don't know if a cult is such a good idea, they tend to end with everyone taking poison at the end ;)

      It's called "Caslon Antique"-

      I'll see about sending the books, it's a bit of a hassle with over 16 of them.

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    2. Just kidding don't worry :)

      I'll wait for them with no problem !

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    3. Send them little by little if you think it is too hard :)

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  7. Just a few things I noticed in the 9th edition version.

    -Demigryphs only have one wound on their profile at the moment.
    -The Meteor Strike result form the Storm of Shemtek gives the Strength of the hit on the model under the central hole as 'Ii' rather than a number.
    -Result 7 in the Steam Boiler Mishap tables tell the player to roll a DI rather than a D6 or D3.
    -I think the mechanical steed should grant the rider +1 armour save as it has the same M value as a barded warhorse and is made of metal, which is much better than simply wearing horse armour.
    -The effective wizard level for channeling is not given for Warrior Priests are Arch Lectors, despite the effectiveness of channeling now being reliant on wizard level.
    -Witch Hunters are not listed as having the Accusation or Grim Resolve special rules in their unit entry, despite the rules being given in the Army Special Rules.
    -Perhaps allow Grand Masters to purchase a Knightly Order upgrade, as so far as I can tell a unit of Knights Panther do not get their bonus charge distance if joined by a character of any kind due to always moving at the speed of the lowest model, (although Blazing Sun would make no difference if he has already joined such a unit).
    -I would really like to see the return of the super sniper, allowing Sharpshooter unit champions to take Hochland Long Rifles, as Marksmen can take them and are of a 'lower' rank and Ballistic Skill, so it fits the fluff.
    -I don't think foot knights should be allowed great weapons or halberds, as they simply become better greatswords, for only a 1 or 2 points more, they should be a sword and board unit based around armour saves rather than the parry saves and Toughness of Imperial Dwarfs.

    Thanks all I could think of, thanks for all the hard work, loving 9th edition so far.

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    1. Fixed all bugs, removed GW's from Reiksguard, and added Hochland rifles (though sniping from a horse seems like it could be difficult...)

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  8. Regarding lords on monsters and you wanting to avoid spaming. Perhaps just bring back a variation of the old rule where certain monsters took up an Hero slot by having all ridden monsters and certain powerful chariots take up a pseudo-rare slot where they count towards the points allowance for lords, but you can only take one for normal armies and up to two for grand armies. Or maybe make those monsters and chariots cost rare points. If you use this system then you should then bring back the ability to have a wizard ride a celestian hurricanum or luminark of hysh.

    Regarding mounts, even if certain ones may not fit the idea of being 'royal' you should leave open options like that for people who love to do conversions. Also, in the case of Hobgoblins riding Hobhounds a Hobhound should have the Frenzy special rule that it grants to the rider.

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    1. I will add that to the Choosing your Army chapter.

      I still don't feel comfortable with having all mounts available to characters. In the case of Chaos, most of their mounts were originally made for the characters, and only later changed into MC int eh case of Skullcrushers for instance.

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    2. Why did Pikes have their ability to gain +1 strength against charging models that cause impact hits removed?

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    3. Streamlining, simply put. I don't want the weapons in the BRB to have a ton of special rules to clutter them up, hence pikes work like longer spears.

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    4. I think both pikes and spears need a buff against cavalry etc. Spears have been pretty much a no go for many editions already.

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    5. In 9th Ed, spears are a lot more useful since they double your attacks for most units, as well as the initiative bonus. Technically speaking, you gain no bonus to your strength by using a spear compared to a sword against cavalry (unless you plant it firmly in the ground). But I would not be against a bonus here per say, I will consider it.

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    6. To be honest, the buffs to spears and removal of supporting attacks already leave them in a good place, buffing them further would result in them crowding out any other weapon option for core units.

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  9. Hello Mathias,

    I like your work so far and looking foreward to see your complete empire book.
    At the moment I dont have the time to go through alls Details of the Rules and the empire unit. But here Some thoughts about the empire (i already stated some below another news, but that discussion was already dead).

    - I do like your change to the attatchment. What i would like to see in addition is a forlorn hope special rule/unit. That would fit very well in the background and could be easyly implemented and treated in the game. I have some nice ideas about that but it would be something very new to the empire and far different from the O&G fanatics.

    - The spearmen and pikes looking very strong and cheap now. Are they a bit overpowered compared to the swordsmen and halbardiers?

    - I like your addition of the knights on foot and your change to the greatswords.
    I also like the idea, that the foot knights can choose between greatswords and sword and shield. But i would suppose another weapon option. The addition of one pistol per model. It looks great and fits to the background and separates the empire knights from the bretonian ones. With that pistol they could use the stand and shoot reaction and could use a additional attack during charge (switching back to sword and shield for the infight).

    - I would like to see an empire, that can build up very differently. For example a Sigmarit Army, a Artillery Army of Nuln, a Knigts (Cav) Army or Karl Franzes Army. Maybe this can be made by special rules of the choosen leader regarding the core/special/rare rules and the permit/prohibit of some units/characters.
    From my personal view i would like to have a unique Elspeth army list or the life guard of Karl Franz, if he is in the army.

    - I always so the Pisoliers as Cuirassiers, regarding both, the look and the equipment. Therefore i see no problem with heavy armor or even plate. Would be nice to have a Caracolla special rule.

    - As stated from someone else before, the DEMIGRYPH KNIGHTS have only one healthpoint. Is that a change or a mistake?

    Finally, thanks for your work, its great. And no problem if you dont like my suggestions, its your book.

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    1. I've increased the price for spearmen and pikemen for the 9th ed version, since they are better now compared to halberds in 8th ed.

      The Reiksguard on foot will have to make due with swords and shields in order to make sure they fulfil a unique role. Only the champion model had a pistol to begin with, so it does not really translate well to the rest of the unit.

      It's likely that certain characters will lift some restrictions for the army. I have not worked that part out yet.

      Pistoliers with heavy armour (in 9th ed) would make them lose their FC rule. Even with plate, they are still not as heavily armored as Bretonnian knights. That's why I have them with medium armour. A Caracolla special rule is kind of already included in the FC rule, so I don't know would could be improved there.

      - Fixed the Demigryph bug, they should ofc have 3W :)

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    2. Thanks for your answer.

      Regarding foot knights with sword, shield and (optional) pistol.
      Thats an older idea of me, that i developed when the foot knights left the oficial army book. its based on the experiance, that the foot knights with sword and shield tend to stick around, because they dont do much more damage than ususal units (halberdiers) and normally faceing elite units. If there is the alternative to equip them with great swords, this seems far more usefull to me that a pure blocking unit. With the pistol the foot knights with sword and shields get the chance to do some more wounds in the first combat round. Not a big change but it could increase the combat res in the first round and they would still need flanking maneuvers to break the enemy.

      That there is only one official model with pistol is not a big deal for me. Its only a equipment option and we could look for alternative models or convert them. There is actually also only one old official reiksguard foot knight model with a greatsword (or i only have one).

      But no problem if you dont like it. I can choose this option for my own, if the enemy is accepting it. Thats the new freedom since GW is out ;)

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  10. First off, great job Mathias. Still eagerly awaiting those Altars for all the schools.

    I notice Pikes here are more expensive than in the DoW book, is this because the Empire has less of a focus on Pikes or because they're going to get more expensive in DoW as well?

    Also what's your opinion on solidifying the Engineer into a special rule (since they seem to do the same thing in every army book) like the 9th age did it?

    Also Ogres got kinda cheap, is this due to the fact that M.Infantry isn't as scary anymore (though they appear to cost the same in both editions) or rather Ogres being too weak overall? Will DoW Ogres see a price decrease?


    Honestly though, nothing left to critique it seems. Every unit has a place and nothing strikes me as too strong. Keep up the good work.

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    1. Thanks!

      Because spears and pikes are stronger in 9th ed, they will get a slight price increase in the DoW book as well.

      You mean like a special rule in the BRB? Not sure that's necessary, only Dwarfs and Empire have them as characters.

      Empire Ogres does not have LA by default, with that they cost the same as other ogres.

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    2. Empire and Dwarfs but also Chaos Dwarfs, special characters such as Leonardo.

      I'm not arguing for or against it though, just wanted your opinion.

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  11. great work man; couple of questions though?

    -will the free company have anymore weapon options
    -if pistoliers take spears + shields do they keep pistols?
    -mounted hunters out of the question?

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    1. Mounted hunters maybe as Kislev mercenaries. Is that planed for the complete book?

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    2. - Not really planning on it, since most of the models have either two hand weapons or pistols, which is also what sets them apart from the other core uns.
      - Yes.
      - Mounted hunters with bows? That does not really fit with the Empire, and they have 4 cavalry units already.

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    3. -fair point
      -ok cheers
      -makes sense (kislev mercenaries then)

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  12. Hey Mathias,
    I was contemplating the Knights and their Inner Circle variants when I remembered that in 9th edition cavalry have impact hits. However, the special rules states that you use the models strength, not specifying its unmodified strength. Does this mean
    their lances increases the strength of the Knights' impact hits or not? Just curious.

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    1. Hi, the 9th Ed BRB states that you use the Strength of the mount, not the rider, so you can't count the lance strength there :)

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    2. Righto, thanks. Then what about Orc Boar Boyz, whose tusker charge special rules gives the mount +2 strength on the charge?

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    3. That will still count towards the impact hits since that's what their strength value is increased by.

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  14. Hi Mathias,
    Thanks a lot for your work and dedication.
    In relation to 8th ed. empire pdf ¿have you considered the option of reducing greatswords points to 8? (with full plate armour they would cost 10). If they remain 9 base and strength 3, I do believe they are a little be expensive and just wonder if they will be "outplaced" by heavy armoured halberdiers and knights on foot or even by dwarves with heavy armour and great weapon

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    1. I have, but I think that would make them too cheap. Technically, they are a little underpriced as is.

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    2. Thanks for your reply Mathias.

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  15. Hello Mathias,

    Again Vazalaar here,

    A couple of questions/requests.:)

    Is is possible to add for the Witch hunter an option for heavy armour, this doesn't contradict the background and gives some nice conversion posibilities. I also don't think this unbalance it.

    Also for spearmen the command options are called halberdiers in the 8th edition book.

    Can you add to the spearmen the option when pikes are taken that heavy armour is an option?

    Also will you add the option that spearmen that can take a pavise as shield? I also think this fits the background for certain states and I don't think it unbalances the list, but allows to have a very nice looking unit (freehand pavise).

    Can you please consider the above?

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    1. The Witch Hunters models have never had more than light armour, heavy armour just does not fit their archetype.

      Only the halberdiers are described as sometimes having HA in the fluff, and landsknechts pikemen models are also lightly armoured.

      Pavises are not really used in the Empire either. I considered tower shields for 9th ed, but seeing as spears does not gain a parry save, tower shields/pavises would have no drawback from normal shields. So in this case, you are better off using pavises on the models, but use the rules for normal shields.

      I will fix the bug in the book though, thanks!

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    2. Hmm, I've seen artwork of Witch Hunters with a breastplate, to me this reflects heavy armour. Light armour is imo padded/studded leather and etc... .

      A tower shield = A pavise. Atleast in my book. HYW infantry was equiped with pavises. Spear + pavise was common equipment.

      If you give the option to have a pavise to Empire Spearmen and imo Bretonnian Men-at-Arms should also receive the option. Pavise rules is like your DoW book +1 extra armour save against range attacks. Upgrade to Pavise shield for 2 points. It doesn't give you any benefit in close combat, but does give your spearmen a 4+ save against ranged attacks. For some players this would be a good investment, for some not. It certainly doesn't unbalances the game or makes regular shield less attractive, because you pay 2 points for a pavise. Meaning that your spearmen with pavise are roughly 1/3 smaller in size against a spearmen unit without pavise for the same point total.

      Also I am a WYSIWYG player, thus it bugs me that DoW units with pavise, that have the same size a Bretonnian infantry shields get the pavise rule and the others with the same sized shield. Doesn't get it.

      Anyway this is opinion.:)

      I am looking forward to the HE book!

      I am not convinced by your 9th edition, as I am a huge fan of 8th edition. Imo the best Warhammer edition. I think your armybooks are the best!

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  16. No new arcane battle altars?

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    1. Don't worry, they will be included in the full army book release :)

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  17. Imperial Dwarfs have Resolute which gives them 9" march movement and it can't be march blocked? That's a big change because the slowest guys are suddenly between men and elves with their movement speed :O Or will this be Imperial Dwarfs only rule?

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    1. Yeah, I'm likely to tweak that a bit and remove resolute altogether. It used to be a rule that was supposed to offset the fact that Dwarfs moved really slowly, but it's really not needed any more with their triple march distance.

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  18. In the final book, how many arcane battle altars will be avalaible ?
    thank you for all your job

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    1. 6, one for each college except Jade and Amber.

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    2. Why don't those 2 get battle alters?

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    3. That they don't use them, according to fluff written by Josh Reynolds, who writes for GW. He posted some background on the other war altars a while back.

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  19. The volley gun doesn't specify that you have to roll to hit for the shots, like it does for the Dwarf organ gun. I would assume it should since they use practically the same mechanism and nowhere does it say that it DOES cause hits, only shots.
    Still, we are having an issue with it and a clarification would be nice. A unit of pasted samurai would love to have a greater chance for glory in their next game ^^

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  20. I was just curious is there any reason why reiksguard knights are i3 instead of i4 some what like their bretonnian counter parts since they are meant to be the elite shock troops of the empire? I did feel they could do with some thing like devastating charge to help represent this as well since in comparassion to their inner circle counterparts in core they feel very plain.

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    1. I'm planning on making Inner Circle Knights special units in the next update, so they will be in on even footing with the Reiksguard.

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    2. If they were moved to special my only real thought is why would you want to take reiksguard over them.

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    3. Reiksguard are Stubborn, and get an additional boost with Kurt Helborg. Inner Circle Knights and Reiksguard are pretty much equal in terms of power, and as such take up the same choice in the army list.

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