Sunday, 6 March 2016

Ravening Hordes - High Elves out now!

Updated 10/3 with bug fixes.

As promised, the next Ravening Hordes book! The High Elf book was mostly solid, so the amount of changes is rather low compared to the Empire book. The main change is the removal of ASF and retooling of Martial Prowess, meaning your characters will now benefit from it similarly to the DE book, and it also partially covers the loss of re-rolls from ASF. In general the book is somewhat weaker than before, with only a few units going down in price with some going up and most losing some damage output. Nothing major that will unbalance the whole army though.

For the 9th Ed book, you will have more expensive troops, but most will also have better armour saves with medium armour for spearmen, and heavy armour (4+) for the elites. In addition, their missile attacks have gotten a boost due to their Multiple Shots from bows.

Next week: Dark Elves!


8th Edition update:

  • ASF removed
  • Martial Prowess = re-roll 1's To Hit.
  • Elven bows added. 
  • Dragon armour does not grant ward saves.
  • Shadow Armour, Star Lance, Armour of Caledor removed (moved to special characters).
  • World Dragon banner nerfed to spells only.
  • Anointed of Asuryan moved to Heroes, does not grant Ward saves.
  • Warriors (shields, 2HW's) added. 
  • Spearmen, Sea Guard, Reavers can have heavy armour (8th ed).
  • Silver Helms have shields by default.
  • White Lions have LA by default.
  • Swordmasters 14 pts (8th ed).
  • Cheaper Shadow Warriors.
  • Cheaper Lion chariots. 
  • Cheaper Dragon Princes.
  • Phoenix Guard moved to rare.
  • Bolt Throwers moved to special.
  • Skycutter moved to rare.
  • Frostheart Phoenix is an upgrade to Flamespyre Phoenix. Blizzard Aura only effects models in base contact.
  • Merwyrm added.
  • Handmaidens of the Everqueen made a rare unit.

Download 8th Ed 


Download 9th Ed

54 comments:

  1. Another great update <3

    Not sure about the steam tank and battle altar in the HE army though ;)

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  2. some minor errata, the tyranoc chariot have 2white lions like crew, and yes the steam tank and altars of the empre are at the end of the file, at least in the 8th one. Not sure it would work the handmaiden unit

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  3. Thanks for the great (and pretty speedy) work you're putting in to this project. Just a few things I've noticed in the 9th edition version:
    -References to rolling for spell generation in the Warrior Mage special rule and the Lore of High Magic.
    -References to ASL and ASF in the Blizzard Aura special rule, and Swordmaster unit entry.
    -Noble has Hold The Line! special rule instead of HE special rules.
    -All referenced to barding outside of characters neglect Ilithmar Barding, which means that by extension, mounted characters only get the 'increased' M value when not in a unit.
    -In my opinion, barded units should have units should have the barding listed under equipment rather than the mount, I just think it looks better, and some units already do this (Empire Knights).
    -Steam tank and Battle Altar are in the Rare section.
    -In my opinion, Warriors are underbalanced compared to Spearmen, as for the same cost (fully upgraded) they have less attacks and a lower armour save. Maybe remove Fight in Extra ranks from Spearmen, as they are already powerful enough with the buffs to spears and an increased armour save, and possibly make 2hw free for Warriors considering the loss of a point of armour.
    -Pheonix Guard have Immune to Psychology instead of Immunity(Psychology).

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    1. The elves have lost an incredible amount of killing power with this update, as they have gone from +1 rank, essentially re-rolling all failed to hits in CC and ASF to simply re-rolling to hits of 1. I think the Spearmen are the only unit to come out relatively unscathed as they retain fighting in extra ranks. However, I think this leaves them overbalanced compared to the Warriors, who seem to fill only the roll of a marginally weaker, cheaper unit, and only if not taking 2hw, in which case they are effectively outright weaker for the same cost.
      After some thought, contrary to my first post, I think that maybe the armour saves of Spearmen need to be lowered slightly to reinforce their role as the damage dealing core infantry, whilst reducing their cost to 9. At the same time, remove the Warriors' ability to take 2hw in order to solidify their role as the only real 'tank' unit of the HE army.
      Also I don't like being able to have Reavers reach 3+ armour, even if they lose FC to do so. They aren't a heavy combat unit, that's what Silver Helms are for. I would remove barding and MA options to reinforce their role as skirmisher killers and flank harass.
      TL:DR Imo, Spearmen light armour 9points, Warriors medium armour no 2hw, also 9points. 2 distinct roles, reduce Reaver armour options.

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    2. - Fixed all bugs, thanks!
      - Moved barding to equipment.
      - Made additional hand weapon a free swap. This way, spearmen cost 1 pt more due to Extra Ranks (if both have LA). Warriors can now either be used to gain parry (most defensive) or smaller units with 2HW's (similar to corsairs) that can go on the offensive more than the spearmen. Spearmen definitely have medium armour on their models, so giving them LA does nto really fit.
      - The new Reaver models have both medium armour and barding on their mounts. With a shield added, it allows you to make a decent medium cavalry unit if you wish.Dark Riders will get the same treatment. They do have spears for a reason ;)

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    3. Good stuff. I haven't looked at the models so I didn't really take that into account, but visual cohesion is important. Pretty happy overall with the book. Keep up the great work.
      PS: Just a question about the long term timeline, do you plan on updating skaven, beastmen, and you own factions to 9th once you are done with the current Ravening Hordes project?

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    4. Yes, exactly. Once all books have 9th ed updates out, I will go back to working on the full army books for the official factions.

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    5. Is that barding upgrade intended not to be Ithilmar barding?

      Heavy reavers sound bit odd at first but you're right that the new models were pretty heavily equipped. Maybe the barding should be 2p instead of 1p just like the armour upgrade? It's basically the same upgrade so it would make sense. That way it would somehow follow the line of armour upgrades in the book, though character's Ithrimal barding upgrades cost more than a armour upgrade.
      Pretty interesting to see 3+ armour save cavalry (only with spears) with possible of a bow.

      You're missing brackets and number inside "(*)" for the Fight in Extra Ranks rules.

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    6. You are right about both, will update it to state ithilmar barding and make the upgrade 2 pts in each list for consistency.

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  4. Let me add more.
    -The Lothern Sky Cutter ignores armor saves despite you making it that Bolt Throwers no longer do that and instead have armour piercing.
    -The Loremaster of Hoeth is listed as a Lord despite having the statline of a hero. If you plan to move them to the heroes section then their wizard level should be reduced by 1.
    -Princes and Nobles seem to have suffered a bit from copy/paste syndrome in that they can't upgrade to medium armor and the changes to armor make their armor upgrades undercosted.
    -Princes and Nobles can no longer take Lion Cloaks for some reason. They should also have access to Lion Chariots if wearing a lion cloak.
    -The Tiranoc Chariot is listed as being ridden by White Lions.
    -The Sisters of Avelorn and Handmaidens of the Everqueen characters have an additional attack instead of better ballistics skill.

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    1. -Lothern Sea Guard are listed as having light armor in their options section.
      -Tiranoc Sky Cutters are listed as being drawn by elven steeds instead of swiftfeather rocs.

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    2. Fixed! Princes can take Lion chariots, handmaidens/sisters champion have +1A intentionally, since Handmaidens are rather likely to get into combat.

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    3. -Nobles and Princes are still listed as having light armor in their options section.
      -The Anointed of Asuryan has Immune to Psychology instead of Immunity (Psychology).
      -The Tiranoc Chariot is still listed as being ridden by White Lions.

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  5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  6. Why did you take off ASF? It seems like now, Elves are basically just humans with pointy hats. ASF was an essential part of elves and was what made them balanced; they were expensive in points and almost all had bad armour saves. And, if you remove it and lower the points cost, then they are basically the same as humans. How is this balanced? It seems like people are just annoyed about having to deal with Elves going first and so you're taking that advantage away.

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    1. Elves have better M, WS, BS, I and Ld compared to humans, so I would disagree with that. They did not have ASF until 7th ed, when it was added as a crutch to HE because you could not strike back if your models got killed, which meant that HE units getting charged would strike after the chargers and lose a lot of attacks the first round of combat. In 8th ed, this is no longer a problem as everyone strikes at Init. anyway, and elves already have I5/6 on all their troops, making ASF useless for that purpose in most cases. Now they get to use their high init. instead, as originally intended.

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    2. Also, the points costs are mostly the same, I only tweaked some of the less popular choices to be worth taking. In the 9th ed book, they are even more expensive. There's no reason for the Elves to have poor armour either, most of their models are almost as armoured as any human knight.

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  7. At a guess, how many weeks until you do one of these for the Tomb Kings?

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    1. You can see the expected release order in the left bar of the page. At this rate, I'd expect TK to be out in about 6 weeks :)

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  8. Now that the ASF is removed I'd give Elves a boost of 1 Initiative or lower 1 Initiative from Chaos.
    There's room to add 1 initiative for Elves so I'd go for that one. That way Chaos is on its own level with I and Elves are one step over that.

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    1. I'm planning on dropping 1 pt of init from WoC, and maybe from some Khorne daemons as well. So Elves at I5 and I6 will strike before pretty much every else, as intended.

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  9. I think that 9th edition Swordmasters are slightly undercosted. They benefited pretty heavily from the removal of supporting attacks due to their 2A characteristic and have gained an armour save. When compared to greatswords, they are 4 points more for well over double the damage output and are actually harder to kill due to WS6 and their special rule. I think this heavily outweighs the Greatswords' stubborn and regimental rules. I would make them at least 16 points as they are simply way too cost efficient with the current rules, in my opinion.

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    1. I think you are right, redid a points check on them, and they really should be 16 pts to be fair. Will update it.

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  10. In my opinion,especially in the 9th edition with their new bow, archers are too powerful and they look like a helblaster volley gun without the risks of misfire. Will other shooting units such as dwarves handgunners for instance be improved like the archers?

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    1. Well, a Helblaster is S5, bows are S3, so there's a bit of a difference ;)
      Empire Handgunners went down in price whereas bows are going up in price, and bows cannot fire twice if they move for any reason (which might give them 2 good turns of shooting if they are lucky). But in general, you are likely to start seeing people use cheap skirmish screens to protect their expensive elites more, especially now that you no longer have true LoS to contend with. I'm also thinking of adding a "brace!" rule for units with shield to protect them from arrows.

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  11. You didn't list the removal of the flamespyre phoenix wake of fire rule. Is it an intentional removal? A shame if it is as it was one of the best 'drive by' (inflict hits in remaining moves phase) units in the game

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    1. Whoa no! Where did that rule go, I'm sure it was in there before? No worries, I'll update the list and add it back in, I had no intention of removing it :)

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    2. On the topic of missing rules, should Lion Chariots have stubborn, as their crew (White Lions) are stubborn?

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    3. I removed it since historically, the White Lions were only Stubborn when joined by a character, as they were a bodyguard unit, which cannot be said for the Lion Chariots themselves. However, I would not be too fussed adding it back in if people prefer it with Stubborn.

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  12. Yes to lion chariots having stubborn. It works makes em different and it is a thing.

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  13. Hey awesome work, I am purely a HE player. Great balance to coincide with your 9th edition rules.

    Only thing I would like to see different please is allowing shadow warriors the upgrade for a second hand weapon, if possible. They are weak in cc so I don't see it as OP plus they will be paying a point cost to upgrade.

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  14. I have played my high elves against empire and empire wiped me. It was still fun with the new rules change, but actual combat and damage means very little. My Phoenix guard unit of 15 models one time killed 5 models and I passed all my saves with no casualties. He still won resolution by a difference of 2 with having 7 total.

    Think the game has to many numbers to get resolution. Flanks and rear attack bonuses should not be continuous or at least only stackable on the turn it was charged. The frontage thing is awkward even though it makes sense. Rank bonus with outnumber bonus goes hand in hand.

    Things should be limited to 1 in my opinion not 3 except ranks maybe.

    Also think monsters will be an issue the unit strength of their wounds which is 4-6 is not a helpful factor, also without extra attacks in persistent rounds is needed the impact hits are not enough.

    Monsters I think should be edited a little more.

    Also characters riding monsters can turn out to be way Over Powered since they are combined into one unit with using the best characteristics from both.

    Thanks for adding my other suggestions in that was cool.

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    1. Some more info about the scenario in question would be useful: what unit were you fighting and how many were they? Did they have any characters in their unit? Didn't you have any combat res, like 2 ranks or a banner? What were his CR bonuses?

      As for Mo, they are not really meant to be used by themselves in prolonged combats, but rather need to hit and run or work with the support of other infantry units, similarly to Chariots.

      Mo and Riders were not really worth taking at all before due to WM, but now you can at least give them a ward save. You do lose out on quite a Wounds in total though (a Dragon Lord has 6W vs 9W in 8th ed). In fact, compared to the End Times rules where you combined the Wounds of both rider and mount, the 9th ed rules make them quite a bit weaker. The pts cost for some ridden monsters will go up though (both the 9th Empire and High Elf griffons are currently 25 pts too cheap).

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    2. Can units or monsters even hit & run? I think monsters should have a higher unit strength like double of their starting wounds or at least always steadfast or stubborn.

      I really think combat resolution bonuses should be reduced and limited and also not all of them should be able to be cumulative among multiple units.

      If that's not the problem maybe it's the empire with its regimental rules.

      From my experience actuak combat means very little and it's about these miscellaneous modifiers to win close combat.

      Overall I do like this system but think it could do better with less or evened out modifiers.

      Because of horde units still being extremely good because of the modifiers certain high elf stuff is over priced. Doesn't matter how good swordmasters are or Phoenix guard if all that it takes to defeat them is outnumbering and frontage and etc it doesn't matter the skill. A unit of 20 costs 350 with command but gets trounced by 80 goblins at 240 points without command it's just silly. Because elves would not shy from those odds.

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  15. I overall flinch everytime I see someone change the ASF and fighting in extra rank rule from HE, it is such a fun and core part of the army, or at least so I used to see it. Having HEs reroll 1s is a nice way to make up for it. It feels fitting for HEs to hit good, as well as this helps GW guys too!
    The problem is that with the rank bonus missing, something just... feels off. The superior discipline and synergy of Ulthuan's defenders should be shown in some way. HE are wet as tissue paper, or at least they used to be. The addition of HA makes the units feel more durable, like having proper armor, which come to think of it should be obvious. Who would send elfs with light armor into battle, they drop wayyy too fast.
    Also now it makes sense for us to pick Lore of Light, ASF has its uses again from spells. Also it is less confusing now when fighting against other ASF armies.
    I have one suggestion though, more of a request: it has always been my dream to see a unit of White Lions riding White Lions, the equivalent of a Khorne Bloodcrusher. DE got their Arachnes, an awesome choice considering the connection to greek mythology (as a greek I approve of your background knowledge ;) Since Arachne was a sewing lady, maybe give Arachnes some sort of Web or net attack, like the night gobbos have, but that's beside the point), so why not let the Asur have some fun too :D ?

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    1. Well, you still have fight in extra ranks on the spearmen, like they did in 7th ed, so it's still there ;)

      As for Lion Riders, I might make some stand-alone rules for them, but they won't be included in the army book itself. Too many White Lion units already imo!



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  16. Can units or monsters even hit & run? I think monsters should have a higher unit strength like double of their starting wounds or at least always steadfast or stubborn.

    I really think combat resolution bonuses should be reduced and limited and also not all of them should be able to be cumulative among multiple units.

    If that's not the problem maybe it's the empire with its regimental rules.

    From my experience actuak combat means very little and it's about these miscellaneous modifiers to win close combat.

    Overall I do like this system but think it could do better with less or evened out modifiers.

    Because of horde units still being extremely good because of the modifiers certain high elf stuff is over priced. Doesn't matter how good swordmasters are or Phoenix guard if all that it takes to defeat them is outnumbering and frontage and etc it doesn't matter the skill. A unit of 20 costs 350 with command but gets trounced by 80 goblins at 240 points without command it's just silly. Because elves would not shy from those odds.

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    1. When I say "hit and run" I mean attacking smaller units they can immediately take out and then keeping moving (like chariots). Otherwise you need to use them as support units (like chariots, but with more fighting power in subsequent combats)).

      If Mo have double US then they could always disrupt units, which would be too easy for fast movers. Many Mo are Stubborn already.

      What bonuses do you think should be changed, and should not be cumulative with multiple units?

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    2. Hey Mathias

      Been pondering that Monster issue I mentioned to you earlier. I can't see many monsters really being woth their salt so to speak, as the rules now stand. The same kind of "unit support" can be done by things like chariots etc for basically half the price. So I've got some possible solutions to offer:

      1. Keep Monster Impact on when charging, but otherwise (and not in addition too), add the following rule:

      Thunderstomp (or whatever other name fits well): Add Impact rule number of hits +1, at Initiative 1, distributed as from shooting to one enemy unit in base contact. The enemy unit must then take an Initiative test to avoid each hit. For each fail, one attack automatically hits at the Monster's base strength value.
      This should only be applicable to Infantry, War beasts, Cavalry etc.. And also, no model can be hit more than once as a result of this rule.

      This would well represent the struggle of having a Massive Mosnster throwing it's weight around, and it also favour more elite troops to go monster hunting. Since characters can aslo only get hit once by this attack (unlike the old thunderstomp), one can also more reasonably face it with a character (being truly heroic), without having to slay the monster in one turn (before being pulverized by d6 automatic hits at the monster's own strenght).

      2. To somewhat counterbalence this, and this is something that has always annoyed me as well, remove the ability form all Monsters (and Monsterous Beasts possibly) to benefit from the LD benefits of the General and BSB. Monsterous characters, special characters and Monsters with Handlers not included.
      It has never sat right with me that something like a Manticore would even pay the yapping of a general as anything meaningful, nor that of a BSB..

      These two rules together would make Monsters a bit more dangerous vs regiments (which they really struggle against now with all the increased CD, and overall increased armour saves as well), but aslo a bit more of a gamble.

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  17. Well like the outnumbering thing for example should be if you are double its +1 and that's it. If we go the cumulative route. That's if it is cumulative amongst multiple units stacking.

    If it's only against the two main units fighting then double is +1 triple is +2 and quadruple is +3. I think the former is better though because it limits to +1

    For flanking it should not be a bonus for persistent rounds, if double flanked then you can only get +1 in every subsequent persistent round. For a rear charge in subsequent persistent rounds it would be +2 as it is now.

    The frontage makes sense but is ridiculous gameplay wise with a difference of 1 cm or worse 1 mm is enough to get the bonus which that part is dumb but it is kinda cool to see ranks of 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, or 12 models wide trying to compete against other units but the applicability is lame, think it should be a set measurement wide like at least 25mm or 50mm wider which respectively to inches is 1" or 2"

    I understand what you mean with monsters but they are big and scary and should be able to handle more than a chariot which some can but it's not equal to the points now. A white lion chariot can cause more damage on average compared to the Phoenixes both types. And that chariot is less then half the points. The monsters should be able to stop an enemy unit from being steadfast especially on a flank or rear charge perhaps not disrupting them fully so the enemy still gets its rank bonus but they can not be steadfast unless stubborn? That sound like a thing?

    Thanks for discussing this and keeping an open mind.

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    1. Sure, I could limit outnumber to a simple +1, it's more in line with 7th ed.

      As for the flanking, you should find it very rare that you will be flanked on both sides, in which case I think +1 for each flank or very fair. You are not going to stick around long with enemies at all sides!

      For the frontage, it would rarely be less than 1cm since all models have at least a 2cm base size. It's also rather easy to get around by changing your own formation so you get more attacks in close combat. Adding an additional measurement of say 1" to either side would cause a lot more fiddling each combat, whereas a straight "wider frontage" means you simply multiple the width of each models base with the number of models in the front rank (like 5x2cm or 3x4cm).

      Lion Chariots vs Phoenixes is not a great comparison since they fulfil different roles. Phoenixes are meant to be used as support units with their Wake of Fire and Fly special rules, rather than being engaged in prolonged combats. What's the point of having a lion chariot if the Phoenix does the exact same thing but better?
      Removing steadfast altogether is the problem, it makes it too easy to break units, and Mo would then need to be more expensive. However, their Terror rule means that any Ld test is taken at -2, which also effect Steadfast units (so, a unit with Ld8 would then be steadfast on Ld6 instead). So while that does not remove Steadfast altogether, a Mo is really efficient at making it weaker, unlike a Chariot.

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  18. What about the High Elves Honnors?

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  19. What about the High Elves Honnors?

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  20. I've notioced something when I looked at both the High and Dark Elves books:

    How come High Elf Spearmen and Dark Elf spearmen cost the same? I think this has been a GW trend as well, but the reasoning has never been a good one.

    -Stats are the same.
    -Equippment is the same.
    -Options are the same.
    -High Elves get to re-roll 1's that miss. Dark Elves 1's that wound. This overall favours the high elves, as one on average rolls twice as many dice on to hit.
    -High Elves get the fight in extra ranks as well.

    The fluff doesn't really support this either in my opinion. High Elf Spearmen are basically a militia (semi-pro's from an army perspective), and Dark Elf Spearmen I would argue are about as professinal a spearman unit as one could find in the warhammer world. I just think GW's reasoning behind this has always been a bit flawed...

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  21. Valour of Ages (9th ed) refer to Fear and Terror "tests" Mathias. Need some other mechanic there instead.

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  22. Much better 9th ed rules! I have always played 8th edition with my friends and I find it pretty disappointing compared with other armies such as Skavens.

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  23. Hi guys and girls,
    I was wondering what people think about giving the Lothern Seaguard Fight in Extra Rank (1)?
    In at least the last 3 editions, don't have the 5th edition book, the Seaguards have been able to fight in 3 ranks.
    The fluff states that the Seaguard are trained like normal Elf militia, if not better. Seems logical to me that the Seaguards are able to fight just aswell with their spears. Will of course only be fair that their price goes up accordingly.

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  24. I was looking through the book and now I wonder, will the Gem of Sunfire work with a dragons breath weapon?

    Oh, and I found a mistake in the book, the special rules for the Flamespyre Phoenix are listed twice, where the second should be the Frostheart Phoenix.

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  25. Just got back into Warhammer, and it seems a lot has changed. I have many questions but I will only ask a few, all about 8th Edition.

    1. Where did Caradryan go? Did he turn into the Anointed of Asuryan

    2. Are these army books the real rules now

    3. How is initiative used to attack or is that 9th Ed?

    Thanks

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    1. And whats with that armour which doesn't cost anything?

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    2. 1. He will be in the full book, which takes place before the End Times.

      2. Depends on whether or not you want to play them. You could use the official book instead, it's up to you.

      3. Highest Init. attacks first, so that will still be Elves in most cases.

      Which armour are you referring to?

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