Saturday, 12 March 2016

Ravening Hordes - Dark Elves out now!

One day earlier than planned! The Dark Elf list features a few more changes compared to the High Elf one, including 3 completely new units. In general, more units have gone down in price (mainly because DE had a lot more units that were frankly not worth taking) and more of them have switched sections. City Guard are most likely to be included in the full release of the book.



8th Ed Changes:

  • ASF removed.
  • Fleetmaster special rule changed to allow ambushers and re-roll failed pursuit rolls.
  • Doomfire Warlocks nerfed to S3.
  • Sisters of Slaughter moved to special.
  • War Hydra moved to rare, have normal regen, 175 pts.
  • Kharibdyss S6, T6. Feast of Bones works on all attacks as long as you hit.
  • Manticore Frenzy by default, 125 pts.
  • Dark Pegasus replaces Impale with Impact Hits (1).
  • Dark Steed can take barding, no longer Fast cavalry by default.
  • Reaper Bolt Thrower moved to special.
  • New Hero: Disciple of Khaine  (DE warrior priest, gains bonuses from causing wounds).
  • New MB: Arachne (half spider, half dark elf).
  • New Mo: Avatar of Khaine (mentioned in 8th ed BRB).
  • Beastmaster moved to hero.
  • Witch Elves moved to special, can take LA.
  • Cheaper Dreadspears and Bleakswords.
  • Sea Dragon cloak only protects against missile attacks.
  • Black Guard moved to Rare (and should now be worth taking since ASF is gone)
  • Re-tooled Magic Items, Executioner's Axe replaces Gem of Spite.
  • Cheaper chariots.
  • Cheaper Harpies, can now take a champion.
  • Champions can no longer take magic items (same for HE).
  • Cheaper Cold One knights.
  • Cheaper Shades.
  • Cheaper Medusa.
  • Cheaper Bloodwrack shrine.
  • Cheaper Corsairs.
  • Cheaper Masters and Dreadlords.
  • Sorceresses can only use Fire, Shadows, Death or Dark Magic (being the evil SoB that they are, DE with Lore of Life is just wrong).

89 comments:

  1. Great work!!!!! Can you tell me what is a Drider?
    And a picture pls if you got one:P THANKS!

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    1. Well, they are half dark elf, half spider, like the post says. Try searching for Drider on google, you'll get a good idea of them then ;)

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  2. Funnily enough I was working on Driders myself in my Mindflayer based Underdark army book. I had them booked down as T5 with stronger ranged attacks (as befitting a Monstrous unit, see Ushabti and the likes) but all in all they're pretty solid. Might be a neat idea to give them Wall-Crawling along the lines of Orc & Goblin spiders. Maybe give 'em a Hero choice that can be a lvl 1/2 Shadow Wizard too.

    That being said I can really dig the overall changes, monsters appear to be balanced now, Doomfire Warlocks got knocked down a peg and Sea Dragon cloaks now kind of remind me of Horo Cloaks as an optional anti-ranged choice rather than a must-have.

    I have to say I'm rather torn on the removal of Magic lore choices. On the one hand having Delfs run life and beasts makes little sense, but this change comes at the cost of variety. Even VC have the ability to expand into lores they usually shouldn't have and since Elves are magic heavy it makes sense for them to access all the lores. By this logic High Elves would lose Death and perhaps Beasts whereas Welfs would lose Fire and Metal.

    Which brings me to another point, the Tome of Furion change. Great idea, but perhaps a bit too cheap? The Loremaster Tome in the BRB does the same thing for the same price but you have to stick to your chosen lore, I'd argue that 25 points is more along the lines of a fair price. Hell, Furion has that Slann ability at 35 points and even then it's worth taking most of the times, since it allows for silly combinations without the need of a second Wizard.

    So yeah, you id a great job on the book, and I'll be real salty if Lizardmen end up losing some lores.

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    1. Yeah, I considered adding wall-crawling as well, but they are a big on the big side though compared to Spider Riders. Still, I'll see about adding it in. I think DE have enough characters as is nwo though.

      High Elves taught the 8 Lores of Magic to the Empire, so naturally they still study them. DE on the other hand are more likely to have given up on the "good" lores and focus solely on despair and destruction, even if they technically could know spells from the other lores from before the Sundering. Wood Elves are also going to lose several lores.

      No problem, I can bump the Tome a bit.

      Don't worry about the Lizardmen, they will still keep all the 8 lores, but might lose High Magic (and will gain Geomancy instead).

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    2. High Magic is defined as the the entire spectrum of magic woven back together and refined into a more advanced form. It completely makes sense that the Slann (the mightiest wizards in the world) are able to use it. High Magic has no intrinsic connection to the High Elves, unlike the rest of the army-exclusive lores.

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    3. I'm aware of that, but I would have preferred each book to have their own lore. So LM would get Geomancy, and HE High Magic. Still, I have not decided on that one yet.

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    4. In my opinion, what made High Magic unique for Lizardmen (apart from the fact that they used Hand of Glory to much greater effect) was the Lore Attribute. The ability to swap spells around on the fly gave you unprecedented versatility. If we don't get to keep High Magic, then perhaps a Slann upgrade would be the solution.

      Also, what's your take on Skink magic? I find Beasts and Heavens ample myself, but I'm almost always for access to more lores for any army (in the realms of sensibleness).

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  3. Good stuff, just a few things I've noticed (9th edition):
    -Cry of War mentions fear tests.
    -Witchbrew mentions rolling to refrain from charges.
    -May have Disciple of Khaine using power level 4 as his spells are quite strong and he gets a fairly reliable to cast bonus.
    -Maybe rename Repeater Crossbow to Naggaroth Repeater Crossbow or something similar to distinguish it from the generic version.
    -Cursed Coven mentions 'rank of 5' despite cavalry only needing ranks of 4 in 9th edition.
    -Scourgerunner chariot crew is listed as white lions.
    -Black Guard have ItP instead of Immunity(Psychology)

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    1. -I think a Hero form of the Fleetmaster called a Black Ark Captain should be added.
      -Why do Assassins have hidden? You already have that rule in the rulebook.
      -The Black Lotus says "For each unsaved wound suffered by a mode: equipped with Black Lotus,that character suffers a -1 penalty to their Leadership for the rest of the game."
      -With the Sisters of Slaughter moved to special, I think they should work more like Wardancers in that they can choose to have either to have a single effect each round. By relation I also think their Weapon Skill should be reduced to 5, attacks reduced by 1, they gain Frenzy and Poisoned Attacks to compensate and that a Hag has the ability to choose one of the following effects as well because from a gameplay standpoint they appear to be Witch Elves +1:
      *+1 to hit or to wound.
      *A 4+ parry save (becomes 3+ due to shields).
      *All enemy units in base contact lose the benefit from parrying and become disrupted.
      -It would be a bit simpler to just say that the Reaper Bolt Throwers special attack has the Multiple Shots (6) special rule.
      -The Noxious Breath of the Black Dragon should be Strength 3 instead since the penalty makes is stronger than the fiery breath of a regular dragon. Flaming attacks on a normal dragons breath weapon sometimes won't even help.
      -The Dark Magic spells do not specify how strong their Armor Piercing effect is.
      -The Black Amulet says "The wearer of the Black Amulet has a the Ward Save (4+) special rule." as its first sentence.
      -The Ring of Hotek says "In, on," at the start of its second sentence.
      -The upgrade from Light Armor to Heavy armor for Dreadlords and Masters is undercosted, it also skips Medium armor.
      -The Black Ark Fleetmaster should be able to choose to replace a hand weapon with a Repeater Handbow.
      -Why is putting a Beastmaster on a Manticore 25 points cheaper than with other characters?
      -The Repeater Handbow of the Khainate Assassin should cost just as much as the additional hand weapon.
      -Dreadspears cost 1 point more even though most of the time, replacing a hand weapon with a spear is free.
      -Allowing Witch Elves to take light armor is fluff-breaking. Are there even Witch Elf models that do have light armor. Their underwear may be made out of metal but it's no where near a breastplate or full leather armor.
      -I always wondered why Cold One Chariots use spears and repeater crossbows instead of lances. Maybe it would make sense to change that.
      -Harpies should have Murderous Prowess, Hatred (High Elves) and WS/BS4 to distinguish them from the Beastmen Harpies.
      -Driders don't fit the Dark Elves on account of being from a different setting. They would make more sense as being moved to Albion.
      -Barding for a Doomfire Warlock doesn't specify that the unit loses Fast Cavalry like with the Dark Riders.

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    2. Driders could also work as part of the amazons or beastmen as well.

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    3. I think Witch Elves should be moved back to Core, or the Sisters of Slaughter moved back to rare.

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    4. I agree with moving Witch Elves back to core and removing their light armour option, not only do the models look unarmoured, but they are meant to be a true glass cannon unit, and are a staple of many DE armies.
      Also, as the SoS ward save is meant to represent dodging (I assume), maybe change it to the same mechanic as skaven assassins, rerolling to hits against them in CC.

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    5. - Fixed the bugs now.
      - I think I will remove repeater crossbows from the BRB, since only DE and Cathay use them, and they both have their own versions.
      - I don't want to add more characters to the Heroes section, it's pretty full already.
      - Assassins have hidden to state what units they can hide in.
      - Why would SoS have poison and Frenzy, that would just make them another version of Witch Elves, which they are not. I think they work fine as is, though a skirmish option might be something to add.
      - Dreadspears are more expensive because spears have gotten a buff in 9th ed.
      - Witch Elves had optional LA in 4th-5th ed, and the older models had a lot more armour. The 6th ed models in particular have armoured legs, shoulders, forearms and chests, a lot more than Marauders and Ogres, and those two units both have LA.
      - The chariot models have always had spears, lances would look really weird.
      - Their is no discernible difference between the Harpies, they are the same unit.
      - I'm going to rename them Arachne after the Greek myth, should be more fitting. But why would Driders fit in Albion, or any other army for that matter?
      - Witch Elves are too elite to fit in the core slot, what with both frenzy and poison together which make them outclass the Corsairs. They fulfil a rather different role compared to the SoS (rank and file killers vs elite killers).
      - Good ideas about changing the Ward save to dodge save, I've fixed that.

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    6. Arachnes would fit the Beastmen because, well, isn't it obvious? Children of Chaos formed from the giant spiders instead of sheep, goats and bulls. In retrospect, I didn't think much about how they would fit Albion so consider that retracted.

      Witch Elves used to not outclass Corsairs due to the Corsairs having a 4+ armor save but now they don't so I guess the Witch Elves should stay where they are. Though I do think that Witch Elves and SoS should be able to become Skirmishers.

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    7. Goblin-Driders would be half goblin, ofc, and this way avoid being a cheap copy. But this what not an actual suggestion, just an example for how to not make it worse.

      Warhammer Fantasy (in opposition to 40k) is already more than enough generic fantasy, it has to stick to every bit of indiviality it has. And copying a most prominent, (there) Dark Elf defining monster from the most prominent P&P universe is just the opposite direction. It occures in other sources not because it was not unique to D&D, but because it does be that prominent.
      Choosing a classic/greek name for it makes it surely less bad or obvious. But I’d prefer an entirely different monster with a less obvious foreign origin, if you deem a new monster neccessary.

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    8. Sry, post above accidently in wrong thread, please delete.

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  4. A question: Why are Driders in? Something like that isnt even once mentioned in the DE-Fluff.

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    1. They were actually a suggestion from one of you guys, I looked them up and thought they would fit rather well with the Warhammer world, though I am likely to re-write the D&D background to something more suitable.

      And to be fair, Warlocks and Medusae were never mentioned in the fluff before the 8th ed book, and yet they are in it now ;)

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    2. Plus you do have mentions of Giant Spiders about Hag Graef, and the Plain of Spiders is in Naggaroth. So there is actually a precedent for spider-creatures in the area :)

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    3. Don't listen to random guys who cannot distinguish WH from D&D then...

      Honestly, what were you thinking?!
      Warlocks and medusae have got models from GW, which gives them the right to exist. They would cause almost as much irritation if you just invented them by your own - almost. Forbidden circles of male magicians (without the Slaanesh nonsense) would even have fit without problems before the 8th book.
      Tamed giant spiders (several in a unit with handler) or Arachnarok (Hydra alternative) would be OK somehow.
      But Dryders never.
      Even if GW introduced them, there would be lots of hate for cheaply stealing a prominent D&D monster and giving it – not to goblins with their spider cultism, no, but to their own Dark Elves. How lame, people would say and be right. And a fan project is much tighter bpund to the existing fluff than an official GW edition where innovations are expected.
      As much as I personally like spider-centaurs, but putting them into a DE book just degrades Druchii to Drow.

      Please, don't do random stuff like this if your project is to be taken seriously!

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    4. I think you are blowing this way out of proportion, stop to look at this from the perspective of a Warhammer player. Driders have the potential to expand upon existing fluff without breaking it, and they fit very well into the Dark Elf theme.
      Giving half elf creatures to Goblins, who A) have more than enough unit variety, and B) FEAR ELVES, wouldn't make any sense in either the fluff or the tabletop. The dark elves however, has room for a Monstrous Unit in their roster, which the Driders fill quite nicely.
      As for stealing from D&D, the use of Dryders in Guild Wars has provides a precedent for them having become a generic fantasy creature, not unique to (although originating from) D&D. People don't get annoyed when people 'steal' the idea of orcs from Tolkien (Orcs from LotR were the foundation for the contemporary depictions of their race).

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    5. I have actually been adding ideas from other games before to my books, and no one has complained about that. Driders are not that unique to D&D anymore, and the background is not going to be exactly the same.

      I could of course, I you prefer, rename them Arachnes after Arachne, the woman who was turned into a spider in Greek Mythology. Which would fit rather well with the DE theme since they already have Medusae, Hydra, Kharibdyss, Manticores and Harpies in the list, all from Greek Myths.

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    6. That Arachne sounds actually very nice just because Driders sounds like shortened Dark Riders :P

      Also some people have converted Driders from Goblin Spiders and use them as Dark Riders. The name fits perfectly in there.

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    7. Yeah, I was never a big fan of the name Driders to begin with honestly, so Arachne will fit better in all aspects really.

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    8. I agree that there is an issue with the nature of Driders.

      Black skin and an arachnophile society are THEY defining aspects of D&D Drows, and WH Dark Elves have never touched upon those aspects, except for some spider-venom, and they use all kinds of venom.
      Using any spider-based troops in WH DE's is therefore a clear and unmistakable link to D&D lore, no matter how one might rationalize it.

      I like the idea of a mutated/cursed sentient MB for DE, very much so, and to link it with Greek mythology is an obvious and consistent way to go. Just maybe do something else that spiders. Sorry to say it, I truly am, but it has that fan-boy smell to it.

      Btw, the 9. ed rules are the best WH rules ever, outstanding job, it has really gotten me into the hobby again in a big way. Starting to think the Age of Sigmar was the best thing that could have happened :D

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    9. Goblin-Driders would be half goblin, ofc, and this way avoid being a cheap copy. But this what not an actual suggestion, just an example for how to not make it worse.

      Warhammer Fantasy (in opposition to 40k) is already more than enough generic fantasy, it has to stick to every bit of indiviality it has. And copying a most prominent, (there) Dark Elf defining monster from the most prominent P&P universe is just the opposite direction. It occures in other sources not because it was not unique to D&D, but because it does be that prominent.
      Choosing a classic/greek name for it makes it surely less bad or obvious. But I’d prefer an entirely different monster with a less obvious foreign origin, if you deem a new monster neccessary.

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  5. I have to agree, the Driders feel really out of place fluff-wise

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    1. You say that, but Nargaroth is ludicrously close to the Chaos Wastes. Mutations are bound to happen.

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    2. I thought the same thing at first, but after some reading on the background, whilst they aren't in the existing lore, they fit very well into Naggarothi theme. As Mathias has mentioned, the Plain of Spiders could well be home to Driders, and similar creatures exist in the form of Medusas. I think, that once they receive some fluff, they will make a welcome addition to the DE roster.

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    3. I suppose I'm not a huge fan of Driders for two reasons. First, Driders are to me one of the iconic D&D monsters, so having them in here just feels, wrong, I suppose. Second, I really don't like D&D drow. I've always preferred Warhammer's Dark Elves. I know people will tell me that there are plenty of similarities (and they're right of course), but when obviously drow things are being inserted into Warhammer Dark Elves I think it blurs the distinction between different depictions of Dark Elves, and thus makes Warhammer's more generic feeling I guess.

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    4. I will rename them Arachnes then, to avoid the D&D feel (and also connect them to DE's Greek theme). Other than that, I'm not planning on changing DE into drow by any means.

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    5. Well, to be perfectly honest - DE Medusas are a result of a curse. Why couldn't some elven god place a curse on some of them because I don't know they liked to have sex with baby dwarves or something?

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    6. That's kind of the idea of Arachne too, she was cursed by Athena. Just need to turn that into a suitable Dark Elf spin and they'll be good to go :)

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    7. Sounds a little better. I guess, I will just ignore that unit like the Doomfire Warlocks.

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    8. No worries, I never like the Doomfire Warlocks myself ;)

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  6. Just a request regarding these Ravening Hordes lists and 9th edition. Can you add links to them on the same bar/menu at the top of the site that the rest of the books have, it's a little frustrating having to scroll down to each book to check for updates. Thanks for all the great work.

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    1. Sure, I've just been putting it of until now, I will update the tab later today.

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  7. Just noticed, many cavalry units across 9th edition are listed as having unit sizes of 5+. Should be updated to 4+ due to cavalry only needing 4 models to count for a rank.

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    1. 5+ is more even (like 10+), and the US was 5+ in 6th ed too, when all you needed was 4 in a rank for Infantry as well.

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  8. Man you are a legend !

    Love the update, and it is good to have the driders in. I love having a new unit that fits nicely with the DE and instead of some overly large monster.

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  9. Did you give your big monsters to freaking Beastmaster APPRENTICES to handle? They are mentioned in the fluff as difficult to acquire and difficult to control (the latter not so much for Kharibdysses but definitely very true for Hydrae). Why can't you just keep their handlers as Beastmasters and the hero choice as High Beastmasters instead of degrading them like this?

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    1. They were actually called Apprentices in the 6th ed book, with the Hero being called Beastmaster.

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    2. Hmm. In that case, a Beastmaster on foot should be able to join a Kharibydiss or War Hydra unit.

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  10. An Avatar??? Finaly!
    Kaela Furdiekh Mensha Famiekh Khaine!
    *More scary ranting about the bloodyhanded god....*

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  11. Just noticed, Manticores have the Uncontrollable special rule, but the actual rules is not given in the special rule section of the document.

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    1. Will remove that one, since ridden Mo die with their rider now.

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  12. You rly awsome but do you have any good idea for more Tomb Kings unit??They rly need some uniqure idea to make them a little more!
    Sadly i didnt find anything beside the khemric titan and i read all the book they were in, in some form
    (if you put the undead goblins in their army book i will commit suicide on someone:DDPLS NO)

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    1. Apart from the Titan, I'm afraid I don't, they are pretty well-rounded already I think. And don't worry, it will be Goblin-free ;)

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    2. Yeah Tomb Kings don't need monsters or similar anymore. Already have those. Some Medium Armour with Barding Heavy Cavalry would be a one thing that I can think but not even sure about that. No real miniatures for those but the current "heavy cavalry" even doesn't have light armor on their models :P Some art shows pretty heavily armored cavalry. OK they aren't anymore named as heavy cavalry as in the old book.

      One thing that could be done is combine the cavalry under one name. There you can go for upgrades, like armor, spears or bows or maybe even both?, Vanguard, Scout options and Fast Cavalry.

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    3. TK will get 2 kinds of cavalry, light and "heavy". Heavy will have options for barding and LA. Models are available from Gamezone.

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  13. Heavy and light chariots
    for the light one is good what we have alredy with skeleton crew and bows
    for the heavy it would be cool to see a tomb guard chariot with killing blows and 3 horse (i know funny ideas:))
    but for serious you have to do something with the horsemen-at least spectral steeds and light armor for them would be not a bad idea

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    1. i mean light armor for basic and not for upgrade

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  14. Great job mate! Keep up the good work!

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  15. Hey Mathias what do you think about the Vamps in TWWH??:)

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    1. Well, it's good that they are included I guess? I have not looked too much into them, I'm gonna wait for the GOTY-version to get all DLC at the same time.

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  16. What would Dark Elf city guard even be though? I'm guessing either core (which there is no room for) or a Special/elite spear man unit (actually that might be interesting).

    Look forward to trying these rules out when I have time.

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    1. I'm planning on it being an upgrade or formation for Dreadspears/Bleakswords/Darkshards, just like it was in 6th ed. So it would be a special rules rather than a whole unit.

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  17. With the new rules for bows, I'm wondering how that will work with Wood Elf Swiftshiver Shards, Waywatchers and Jungle Stalkers. I'm guessing that Waywatchers and Jungle Stalkers will have the ability to fire three shots but keep Stand and Fire while Swiftshiver Shards remove Stand and Fire.

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    1. Most likely Waywatchers will just keep their normal multiple shots (2). It will still be useful in case you need to turn the unit around to face another target, in which you can't use Stand and Fire. Swiftshiver will use a similar rule, allowing you to move and fire.

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    2. The way the Waywatchers worked is that they fired multiple shots for dealing with lightly armored opponents and armour ignoring ones for heavily armored opponents. The structure you're presenting departs from that design. I also think that Swiftshiver Shards should have a different function to both of the Waywatcher firing modes so that you can make Waywatchers able to take enchanted arrows.

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  18. Under the current rules, it's possible for a tarpit to be completely wiped out by a unit a quarter of its size. Perhaps make it that instead of getting destroyed when caught by a pursuit, the caught unit instead suffers a single hit from each model in the unit(s) that caught it. More logical, and being caught in a pursuit is still quite bad because it'll take a large bite out of the unit that gets caught.

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    1. Maybe suffer unsavable wounds equal to the unit strength of the pursuing unit when caught? Suffering a hit per model nerfs pursuit too much as equal size and power units only inflict about 50% casualties, you should completely wipe out smaller units while making a big dent in larger ones.

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    2. I did have something like that planned originally, but it resulted in slowing the game down a bit with a lot more rules text. Then again, I had it based around Attacks rather than US - the latter should be easier to implement. I'll see about adding it back in the next update.

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    3. Here's my take on what the rule should be:
      If the victorious unit's pursuit roll is equal to or greater than the Flee roll scored by the fleeing enemy unit, then each pursuing model inflicts a number of automatic hits equal to the unit strength of the model. Models with two profiles (such as Cavalry) must divide the hits inflicted equally between the two profiles. These hits benefit from strength bonuses due to charging (such as from cavalry models using a spear or lance).

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    4. Too complicated and time-consuming. If implemented, it would be a simple case of "for each US the pursuing unit has, the fleeing unit suffers 1 Wound with no saves allowed" if "caught". So a unit of 40 goblins who get to make a successful pursuit is likely to completely run down a smaller unit, whereas a single Giant Eagle would only inflict 3W, which is a lot fairer.

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  19. I have an opinion that Sea Clock must be same as old (+2 Armour), I understand why you make this chouse (easy 1+ heroes). But it makes Corsairs bad choise in 8 edition (same cost as Spearmen and same umount of attacks, but spearmeh have 4+ in HtH). and in 9 edition they just 1 pount cheaper, but spearmen hava defence bonus, and become more valuedle bunker.

    It is and Option, to take varian from etc 9edition.
    Give to Master and Dreadlord "classes"
    "Fleet comander"
    Only on foot. no heavy armour, cloack, aditional hand weapon (maybe even by default)
    "Foot Lord"
    No Cloack, No mounts. No Lance
    "Mount Lord"
    No Cloac, No Helbeart

    Or any other combination.

    And also it well be great to give named charater an option (may be even that have point cost), to move units from type to type (like give to Malekith to move BG to Special, to Helbornt to move Withts to core and etc.)

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    1. I will make spearmen 0,5 pts more expensive in 8th ed, that will make them on par statistically. So a dreadspear will be 9,5 pts with HA vs 9 pts for a Corsair. The corsairs will also get a skirmish option to allow them to work as effective screeners with their 4+ save against missiles. So Dreadspears will make better bunkers, whereas Corsairs will act like more of a strike force.

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  20. It is evident that you are using the 6th and 7th edition Dark Elves as inspiration for your 9th edition. After examining the 9th Ed books, I feel that the Dark Elves fall short. I have a few critics about how the make the DE equal to the other faction.
    • I feel the Hatred (High Elves) don’t show their hatred of all living things. I would replace the Hatred (High Elves) for Hatred (All Enemys).
    • The Dreadspears are one point more the Bleaksword. The Dreadspears should be 9 points.
    o However, a change that could better comply with the lore would to give the Dreadspears stubborn the turn they are charged and keep them at 10 point. If you do this one I would also give the Bleakswords “Devistating Charge” and raze to 10 point as well.
    • The Darkshards are just not enough “bang for the buck”. I have looked over the other range core that are similar to them and found that ether the unit had just a much shots for cheaper cost or more powerful shots with greater range. If you increase the Repeater Crossbow multi shot to 3 or 4 I think this would give them the edge to complete with other range units.
    o It you do raze the shots to 4 I would recommend razing the cost of the Repeater crossbows of the Dark Riders to at least 5 points per model.
    • Black Ark Corsairs have a problem competing with the Bleaksword (even before giving the devastating charge). The higher armor and parry just makes the Black Ark Corsairs not worth it. Giving them skirmisher would fill an impotent roll that is lacking in the Dark Elves army. Making them a screening skirmisher force.
    • After looking over the Arachne, it would be better if the use javelins instead of bows. This would take advantage of their strength.
    • Beastmaster don’t have much in helping the army besides give extra attacks to 1 of the 3 monster in the rare section. As part of the Beastslaver rule, the beastmaster could provide a unit of monstrous infantry/cavalry/beast , cavalry, or war beast the frenzy rule. The frenzy rule would only apply to the mount not the rider.
    • I wouldn’t know what lore you are using for the Avatar of Khaine, if it is like the Avatar the elder uses then it should be Daemonic and have a (+5) ward save. I would like to note that it should have the Daemonic rule for enemies like the Warrior Priests.

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  21. Looking over at the Dark Elf 9th ed book again here Matias, and I noticed a few things, and had a few thoughts:

    1. Regarding the Avatar of Khaine, shouldn he be Monster (character), not just Monster. This would make him comparable to greater daemons etc..

    It also says Large Terror, where it should say Large Target.

    Should one consider changing Magical Resistance (2) to a Ward Save (5+) like other demons?

    I'm sort of picturing using the model from 40k here, in which case Flaming Attacks should be in order I think..

    2. For better fluff integration, have you considered changing the Arachne unit into Spider Riding Shades instead? It should be doable model wise (Dark Rider model on Giant Spider). Maybe armed ith poisoned Javelins, Spears and nets possibly? Just a thought...

    3. Isaw someone above mention a Corsair Hero character, and had a thought. What if Corsair become a Skirmishing unit, but the Corsair Captain gets the opton of forming them into a normal unit (more disciplined). This character can also serve as a unique Corsair type BSB.

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    1. 1. The Avatar is more like a Golem, not a sentient thing as such. Have not decided on the fluff too much yet, it might not be Daemonic. FLaming attacks might be added as an upgrade. HKB will probably also be added.

      2. I'd like to avoid having the same unit repeated twice, and goblins already have spider riders.

      3. Corsairs will get a skirmish option as part of their normal options. I don't think they need another hero choice though.

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    3. 1. I was sort of picturing the Avatar from 40k basically. Since the High Elves and Dark elves have tthe same gods, in 40k and fatasy etc. It sort of fits as well, since in fantasy, the dark elves are Khaine's chosen so to speak. Anyway, that's what I based my suggestions on. :-)

      2. I was thinking more of a form of Monstrous Cavalry, not Cavalry as the goblins have. Remember the 4-5th ed great spiders on 40mm bases that one could buy for goblin heroes etc? Something like that, that packed a bit more punch, but tactically worked just as you have pictured the Arachnea to work. Heck, the name could still be used. Anyway, just a thought to take a step back from any D&D issue, as well as seeing it as a good opportunity to expand upon the lore of the Shade clans etc.

      3. On second though, I agree with you. Not really needed. Especially of Skirmish is just an Option for Corsairs. I was thinking of using him to enable the removal of the Skrimish rule, but I agree that just using the Master and keeping Skirmish as an Option is a better solution.

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  22. Regarding te Avatar ofKhaine btw,, How about redicing attacks and giviing it Heroic Killing blow? It would fit the fluff t least.. Being the God of Murder etc.. Ws 7, A 3 for example. It would fit well, and not many do have this special rule in the game either.

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  23. After having given it some thought, the Corsairs and their use can be very easily fixed, but addint the sentence "Any army that includes one or more Fleetmasters may also choose to deploy any Corsairs as Skrimishers." at the end of the Raiding Party special rule.

    This would give even more of an incenive to use the Fleetmaster and to encourage a themed army around him.

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  24. I like your version of the Army Book! The only thing I would change would be the Avatar of Khaine. I think something is missing to better represent the wrath of Khaine and the madness he spreads around! If the Cauldron of Blood have an "aura effect", the Avatar of Khaine should also influence the units around. My suggestion is to add a rule to his profile like this : "All units 6" around the A.ofK. get the Hatred special rule. If a model already have this rule, he get Eternal Hatred."

    If you read the End Times book : Khaine, you can see how an item with a part of the spirit of this god (like the Widowmaker) can influence the people.

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  25. When it comes to the Avatar btw, a thought just struck me. It could be based on the model used on top of the Couldron of Blood. This is after all the odd piece out if one decides to make the model into that Medusa thing with te mirror instead.

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  26. played a game agains DE this weekend and found one thing missing with hydras spitting fire. they cant hit anything with their BS 0. and i could not find anything in the rules about them being auto hits. well we used bs 4 and also increased the range to 12", 8 was ridiculously short we in our opinion.
    well nothing of this had any impact on the game as my cannon (famed in my gaming group as not being able to kill even a goblin, I just keep rolling those 1's to wound) killed the foul beast the first shooting phase. (wooohoo, yeah i killed something with my cannon. might have been heard all over Sweden)

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  27. https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/naga-queen-with-composite-bow-1.html

    Could base a unit on this model instead of the Driders possibly. The Dark Elves are more "Snake/Lizard" themed than spider in Warhammer at least. Also, cool model which is always a plus...

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  28. Took a look at your inspiration from the BRB regarding the "Avatar" btw. After reading that, I don't think a Monster is the most fitting choice. Something along hte line of a Monstrous Infantry/Mounstrous Beast kind of unit seems mre appropriate. We are just talking about the power of a murderer "powering" the thing after all. To find the model for an eldar inspired machine of that nature however, could be difficult... I'll look around for a bit, and see what I can come up with however.

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  29. I've been looking around for some inspirational model to base the "Avatars of Khaine" on, but sadly, I've yet to find any that really fit the bill... :-/ I'm imagining some armoured/steel infantry model with two hand weapons (or perhaos four), that looks evil, a bit tall and lanky, and preferably bordering on elvish... There are some Naga type figures, but they don't really fit the steel giant/Khaine idea all the well...

    Some thoughts on the list overall:

    1. Have you considered Chimara's in the list? They are also mentioned in the Dark elf Section of the BRB, and could make an interesting Pet for Beastmaster type character, with a limit of 1 per Beastmaster character in the army perhaps?

    2. Dreadspear Veterans. As I've mentioned before (see posts above) tink it very strange that the High Elves, with their "Militias", has access to fight in extra ranks with all of their spearmen, while the far more military minded, and aggressive Dark Elves come up short. Yes, some of the Dark Elf Dreadspears will technically still technically be city guards, that never really see much action, but those that do, are far more likely to be much more experienced than th defensive Militias of the High Elves. I therefore think an optional upgrade might be a fitting solution.

    3. Slave Fighters. If a situation was deperate enough, I can picture a Dark Elf army arming and sending out slaves to die, for some temporary tactical advantage (excellent use of the Expendable special rule), especially if friendlies could fire into that close combat. Maybe a slave unit could be an option. I like the idea tactically, but from a model/army look basis, I'm less convinced...

    Just some thoughts.

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    1. I use the Avatar of Khaine model from 40k. Painted in bronze/silver, it looks quite the part.

      1. Yes, but since they already have Manticores, I'm not so sure Chimerae are needed. Will consider it though.

      2. HE are more defensive, hence better spearmen. DE might get back a city guard formation instead.

      3. Will be included, rules were already made for them in Citadel journal way back.

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    3. If you're going with the Monster type Avatar of Khaine, that model offcourse fits well. I agree.
      The reason I didn't like that idea, however is sort of two-fold. Firtst, the fluff states that these creations of Malekith are imbued with the soul of a murderer, not something great and powerful like some greater deamon etc. There is something a bit off with how easy it seems to make them, escpecially considering how full of "murderers" Naggaroth is. They are also mentioned as in plural, not one... One, or even many of those things would almost require some form of re-write of Druuchi histrory, as there is no way they could not have had a significant impact...

      1. I'd consider doing something a bit different to it rule-wise, to distinguish it from the WoC one though... Maybe a highter LD, but if fauled, there might be some chance it goes on a rampage or something.

      2. That's a rather thin justification for it I think... If Dark elves were not disciplined enough to use spears, they wouldn't have them at all.

      3. Ok. Never seen that. I think only human slaves are reasonable though, as the others would be considered far to valuable to use in such a fashion, or be too dangerous to keep as slaves in large numbers.

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  30. Regarding the City Guard, I don't recall the exact rules they had back in the day, but I remember there was at least one front rank with repeating crossbows, and spears behind them. I do like this idea, but one would have to find some sensible way to balance this out, as the City Guards are per definition the warriors in DE society that sees the lest amount of fighting in general, and when they do, I imagine their primary duty would have been to defend the city walls (which is "easy" in comparison to figting on a battlefield).
    I'm in favor of having them in as a Core Option however, I'm just not sure how to balance them properly, so that they don't make the other Core Options obsolete, the Dreadspears in particular.

    One suggestion could be to give one Dreadspear unit per Dreadlord in the army the opportunity to be upgraded to "household veterans" or something similar. Given them a banner option and some meaningful bonus. Yes, I've argued for the Dreadspears being at lest the equal of the Militia Spearmen of the Highelves before (and I still think I'm right here), but they could easily have some other bonus instead of Fight in Extra Rank, to make them the equal of the high Elves, without makin them too similar.
    If you look at the Dreadspear models, they do have a place ( a notch) to support their spears on their shields, making an argument for a Parry option as it would allow them to make a more solid shieldwall. Just a thought.

    Regarding the Chimera (which is perhaps the monster that has taken the biggest hit with the Monsters not being able to use the General/BSB buffs due to it's LD of 5), one could simply allow it to use the Beastmaster's LD if within 12" instead.

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    1. Or the Beastmaster thing could apply to all "non-ridden Monsters" in general, including any ridden by the Beastmaster...

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