Tuesday, 12 July 2016

Cathay 8th and 9th ed updated out now!

Updated 19/7

A bit later than planned (been busy with work and my new GPU), but here it is, none the less. There might still be some bugs in the 9th ed version due to a sync error with an earlier version, but I've tried to fix all I've found. The Chaos Dwarf update is dependant on some new pictures from Tamurkhan that a friend is getting for me, so it will either be a bit delayed, or I will work on the Cult of Ulric update in the meantime.

  • Lore of Ying and Yan are separate lores with access to boosted versions of their spells. Wizards still get access to both lores as before.
  • Fixed multiple grammar and layout issues in the background section.


  1. -Usually ranges are a multiple of 3". The Cathayan Repeater Crossbow should have either a 15" range or 18" range. My preference is 18".
    -The Cathayan Longsword is missing it's previous Two-Handed special rule. Currently, it can be used alongside a shield to grant a 5+ parry save but one arm is usually not strong enough to parry attacks.
    -The Skaven elite infiltrators can also vanguard and ambush, the Dark Elf Assassins have automatic Immune to Psychology. I think the Nightblades should get the Hobgoblin Backstab rule and a special rule where enemies in combat with Nightblades also count as being engaged in both flanks. For example, if a Nightblade attacks a Flank, the opponent counts as being attacked in the rear as well, if the Nightblade attacks the front, the opponent counts as being attacked in both flanks as well and if the Nightblades are attacked in the rear then the opponent counts as being attacked in both flanks as well. They learned something from the Sneaky Gits. I also think that Skaven Assassins and Master Assassins should have Vanguard and Ambushers.
    -Celestial Dragon Monks still have Immune to Psychology.
    -Since Terracotta Warriors have a spark of intelligence, I would give them WS3 like most constructs and also make them T4 and maybe S4, since fired clay is a lot tougher than flesh.
    -Wouldn't it be simpler to just have the Dragon's Breath function as a Fire Thrower that fires the template from the barrel instead of spewing over an arc?
    -The Stormhurler Ballistas special profile should have the Multiple Shots (6) special rule instead of the special rule saying it fires 6 shots.
    -For a Dragon Cannons Explosive Ammunition, it should instead place a small template where it hits and then bounce as normal.
    -Xen Huongs dragon form should have the statline of a Star Dragon. Just increase toughness by 1.
    -The Equilibrium Lore Attribute of the Lore of Yin and Yang says when rolling for spells.
    -The Imperial Dragon Armor should just grant Immunity (Flaming Attacks).
    -The Jade Dragon Token should just grant Magic Resistance (2).
    -Warlords and Duizhu should have access to Jin Shan and Reclining Moon Lances. This would represent the particularly notable Wu Xia.
    -Warlords and Duizhu's are missing ranged weapon options. Give them access to bows, crossbows and repeater crossbows.
    -Change the name of Repeater Crossbowmen to Bowmen, then remove the ranged weapon options from Imperial Infantry start off at two points per model and only equipped with a hand weapon and must take either a bow for 2pts, or a Crossbow or Repeater Crossbow for 4pts.
    -Steppe Archers should be armed with regular bows, due to using recurves.
    -That picture you used for Swordsaints and Wu Xia makes it look like they should have Heavy Armor.
    -Celestial Dragons should be able to choose between having a flaming breath or an electrical breath exactly the same as the one used by a Storm Dragon from Storm of Magic. Which lore they can take should also be tied to which breath they have.

    1. -Since the Lore of Yin and Yang is heavily based around opposites, Wu Jen should have access to the Lore of Shadow and Death as well. Remove access to the Lore of Metal since that doesn't seem to be represented in any way in the Lore of Yin and Yang. If there was a Lore of Water I would suggest adding it to what they can use as well but sadly there isn't.

    2. -Why is the Phoeinix S4? There isn't a single monster in the game that has Strength or Toughness less than 5.

    3. - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - It's better to compare them to any scouting skirmishing unit, they are on the same level as them. Gutter Runner does not have ambush, all skirmishers have vanguard.
      - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - It worked like that in a previous edition, but then it was too good.
      - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - Fixed.
      - Wu Xia should be leading units, hence their equipment is only availble to them. It would be like giving Dwarf thanes slayer axes, it just does not fit.
      - Cathayan generals do not fight with missile weapons, that's mainly for commoners.
      - Repeater crossbowmen does not wear armour by default, that's why they are their own unit choice.
      - I will be over all armies to try to make sure they are more consistent with each other. I try not to take such things as recuve bows into account (since goblins should have normal bows in that case, and hardly any armies except halflings would use short bows at all.
      - True, but most models is more consistent with medium armour, same as samurai.
      - There are, AFAIK, nothing in Chinese myths that allege to their Dragons being able to breath lightning.
      - I've added shadow in place of life, death does not really fit that well imo. Metal is due to their alchemists, rather than anything to do with Ying and Yan.
      - Fixed.

      Btw, think you could go through the Chaos Dwarf book and give your suggestions for that one before I update it, saves me a lot of time having to go back and redo both versions :)

    4. Don't get sucked into completely adhering to history when making Celestial Dragons. Sometimes it's better to put crunch before fluff. I don't think there are any myths of dragons breathing lightning but that didn't stop GW from making lightning breathing dragons in Storm of Magic. And yes, I'll go through the Chaos Dwarf book.

    5. Suggestions for Chaos Dwarves:
      -I imagine you're going to change Resolute to the version from Ravening Hordes and remove Relentless.
      -Blackshard armor should just be Heavy Armor.
      -Infernal Guard should be S3 like typical dwarfs. They don't have the WS increase that S4 dwarfs have to go along with the increased strength and are also a basic unit with no restrictions.
      -I still think the unique equipment that Sorcerer Prophets can have should be brought back. Maybe as magic items that don't have a 1 per army limit.
      -Make sure that Zealot Berserkers, the Mask of the Furnace and K'daai have Immunity (Flaming Attacks) instead of a 2+ ward save against flaming attacks.
      -Whirlwinds and Tendirizers should be one per unit like most Chariots. It should also be possible to have a Tau-ruk push one.
      -Bull Centaur Tau'ruks should be A4. It goes with the pattern established by minotaurs and ogres where hero ones have 4 attacks base.
      -Hobgoblin Khans should be BS4.
      -Orc Slaves and Goblin Slaves should have regular Animosity that also doesn't have to be tested for if Chaos Dwarfs are nearby.
      -The Inferno Gun is accidentally called a Swivel Gun in its paragraph.
      -The Magma Thrower needs to use the fire thrower rules. Currently, it functions as a very weak bolt thrower.
      -If you don't decide to reduce the strength of the Infernal Guard, the crew of a Juggernaut Siege Tower should be S4 since they are armed with Fireglaives, an Infernal Guard exclusive weapon.
      -Chaos Siege Giants should not be WS4. Why would having armor plates and weaponry bolted to your skeleton improve their WS. They also should just be Stubborn but missing Immune to Psychology like a Slave Giant. After all, what a Siege Giant went through is probably a lot more traumatizing than what a Slave Giant goes through.
      -The Altar of Hashut should be T7 or something similar.
      -Great Tauruses should have Immunity (Flaming Attacks).
      -The Siege Giant entry has a formatting error where the 5-6 result on the little things chart isn't present.
      -The Onyx Amulet has a double negative, saying: "no model in base contact may not cast spells".
      -Rykarth's Captain of the Immortals rule is redundant since him having Unbreakable will also grant it to whatever unit he joins.
      -The Dark Mace of Death and Obsidian Blade have grammar errors where. The Dark Mace of Death's effects sentence is missing a "the" and the Obsidian Blades effects sentence is missing a "has".
      -The Daemon Flask of Ashak does not need to say that Immune to Psychology and Unbreakable units are unaffected because as a rule they are already unaffected by panic.
      -The Stone Mantle's fluff description should have its comma replaced with an s.
      -Godruz Backstabber should only have Cowardly Despoilers if he is mounted.
      -You should bring back Infernal Ironsworn, a special unit of Infernal Guard with WS5, S4, Ensorcelled Hand Weapons and a shield. Hit like Dwarf Warriors with Great Weapons but don't suffer an initiative penalty and use a shield. Also, consider bringing back the Great Weapon option since the models exist for it.

    6. I agree with a lot of your suggestions. I did not realize that relentless was changed in the ravening hordes updates. With regards to the infernal guard, if their strength is reduced and blackshard armour is changed to heavy armour, then what would be the point in them other than for the fireglaives? To me, gromril armour == blackshard armour and should remain the same as it is now. I think the acolytes of hashut fulfill a similar role as the infernal ironsworn did in previous iterations.

    7. I meant resolute instead of relentless in the above. Also, why not impose the same restriction to infernal guard that ironbreakers have in the dwarf book? 1 unit of infernal guard for every unit of chaos dwarf warriors.

    8. -Mathias is very big on WYSIWYG and by his standards, Blackshard Armor would be Heavy Armor instead of Full Plate Armor since it has plates protecting the chest, shoulders and forearms but everything else is protected by scale armor. Though perhaps to represent the resistance against fire, Blackshard armor could cause flaming attacks without a physical component, (like Fire Breath or Lore of Fire spells) to suffer a -1 strength penalty.
      -As I understand, the Acolytes of Hashut are non-canon unit that Mathias made up so there wouldn't be much fuss in removing the Acolytes and transferring their ability to take a Petrified Sorcerer to the Infernal Ironsworn. I can't remember what other units he added that are non-canon however. Maybe the zealot berserkers but I'm not sure.
      -I actually liked how sparse actual chaos dwarfs were in the forge world list and how even if you did make a full dwarf army it would still have less dwarfs than what regular dwarfs could muster. This represented the fluff of how few in number chaos dwarfs are and how reliant they are on slaves. The addition of Chaos Dwarf Warriors and Devastators removed that so I think that both should be removed and their options transferred to the less numerous Infernal Guard.
      -If Zealot Berserkers aren't removed then Overlords and Despots should have the ability to exchange their Blackshard armor for Frenzy and a Mark of Hashut.

    9. Blackshard armor will remain the same as now (full plate). As far as WYSIWYG is concerned, "full plate" is not necessarily plate, but rather completely covering thick metal armour. Heavy armour is partial plate/chain/scale mail that often leaves part of the body or face unarmoured (such as black guard or phoenix guard, or Bretonnians).
      I'm not planning on removing any chaos dwarf units, the 5th ed book had both basic warriors and blunderbussers. Infernal Guard is a more elite version of the basic warrior, similar to Longbeards (and will have the same restriction).

    10. Just to clarify armour further; bretonnians, while mostly completely armoured, wear brigandines rather than breast plates which offers less protection compared to an Empire knight.
      Medium armour can also be partial metal armour, but covers even less of the body, usually leaving the face and parts of the arms and legs open (bestigors, stormvermin, samurai).

      Light armour is usually leather armour, or a simple chainmail coat or breastplate that more or less only protects the torso.

    11. -Devastators should have the option to take Inferno Guns and Bazukas as well. Placing a specialized ranged unit in a dedicated melee one is of questionable usefulness while with Devastators fulfilling the role of the parent unit won't affect the role of the support weapons.

    12. That actually makes a lot sense. Giving the option of the bazuka and inferno gun to the devastators would finally force me to try them out.

    13. -Another thing, the Hobgoblin Ballista should (in both the Chaos Dwarf army book and Hobgoblin army book) should have the ramshackle special rule just like Goblin Spear Chukka. The Hobgoblin book described the Hobgoblin Ballista as being rather crude.

  2. What unit updates are being planned for the chaos dwarfs book if you don't mind sharing?

    1. Very minor ones, it's most just going to be a quick 9th ed update as well as adding better quality scans from Tamurkhan.

    2. Might I suggest the following:

      -acolytes' dirges affect units within 6"
      -the option for warriors or devastators to take crossbows.
      -reduce points cost of fireglaives to 3 ppm.

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. Also, the chaos dwarfs should have a rule similar to shieldwall like their western cousins. The book discusses this in the entry for chaos dwarf warriors.

    5. Will look into the Dirges, but that would also make them more expensive.

      Crossbows does not really fit with the Chaos Dwarf background.

      Will look into the fireglaves and shieldwall too.

    6. -Perhaps do the dirges in the same vein as sisters of the thorn/doomfire warlocks?

      Thanks for considering my suggestions.

    7. This comment has been removed by the author.

    8. After rereading the army book again, I've come up with a couple more suggestions for the update:
      -sorcerer-prophet ws4, I1, A1. 185 pts
      -allow sorcerer prophets and daemonsmith access to lore of Shadow
      -remove restrictions on goblin and orc slaves requiring a unit of hobgoblins.
      -Sneaky gits 5pts per model
      -hobgoblin wolf riders do not lose fast cavalry when equipped with shields.
      -move spear chucka's to special. Number of choices per army similar to elven bolt thrower.
      -Immortals have A2 base.
      -Devastators allowed to take fireglaives.
      -Fireglaives 3ppm
      -Altar of hashut and the acolytes need a rework although not really sure the best way to do it. I like Tommy H's version of these units.
      -Shieldwall special rule similar to dwarfs.


    9. Also, palanquins add +2w and +2as to sorcerer-prophet.

    10. Finally, I would not change the magma cannon too much from what it is now. Making it a fire thrower proper would negate its cannon like aspect as the original rules intended.

  3. Maybe it's just my computer, but the link to the Cathay book under 8th edition takes you to the old, pre-update version of the book....

    1. Thanks for letting me know, must have been because I changed the name to "8th ed". It should be fixed now.

  4. What exactly are the movement penalties listed for the swift feline? Could a unit making a shooting attack be subjected to this Stratagem and shoot without any penalties to their shooting attack, or do they still count as moving? Also, can Stratagems be used in the opponents turn other then charge reactions?

    1. It's pretty much the same as a swift reform, but does not require a musician. I will clarify it better in the next update, thanks for bringing it up.

  5. Coming from Chinese background, I think I should point out that burning, self-resurrecting phoenix are Greek rather than Chinese. Chinese Fenghuang are just really fancy bird.

    Also, kinda weird seeing Ninja (nightshade) on an army based on China.

    1. True, but it makes it more consistent with the High Elf Phoenix, and gives it a role and attributes most people are familiar with when they hear of Phoenixes. It's a bit tricky to make cool rules for a fancy bird with no magical powers :)

      Nightblades are not Ninjas, but rather Jiān, or Imperial Assassins, which China historically had.

    2. Never heard of Jiān either. Do you mean Jinyiwei or something along that line?

    3. Almost, thinking more along the lines of the assassins from the movie Curse of the Golden Flower or Brotherhood of Blades (which were part of the Jinyiwei). I read they were also called "musruh rahnen" (sp?). Details are pretty scarce about Chinese not-ninja assassins overall. Guess that means they are really good at what they are doing? ;)

    4. Musruh Rahnan?? I need to check that out.

      Speaking of assassin,

      For the most part, assassins (cì kè) in early Chinese legends were heroes and symbol of righteousness + justice (which make them very different from the brooding shadowy figure we commonly associated with assassins). This type of assassin became deeply ingrained in Chinese consciousness and eventually evolved into the Wuxia genre. So assassin = wuxia, basically.

      For those under Imperial service such as Jinyiwei, they were more akin to inquisitors, a.k.a. "Judge+Jury+Executioner". Unlike the wuxia assassin, they were hated and often played antagonistic role in fiction.

  6. Sorry for the post necromancy, but i have no other place to ask. How does the Dragons Breath work? On page 64 of the Army book it is stated that it fires like a breath weapon, but in the weapon entry it has range 12 inches. So, my questions are:
    1) If it is fired like Breath Weapon, does that mean this is one use only?
    2) Is the range - 12 inches in the weapon entry an error or does it mean I can place the flame template within 12 inches from the model?
    By the way, a small question about Stomrhurler Balista. Does it suffer from Multiple shot penalty when firing its 6 small bolts instead of the big one?
    Thanks in advance!