- Spearmen 11 pts.
Very small update here, just fixing Imrik's Dragons stats and putting the Phoenix King timeline in chronological order, as well as changing the short story about killing Kouran into Urian Poisonblade instead.
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Saturday, 14 April 2018
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As I said before you should give them the option between light and medium armour. :)
ReplyDeleteDo you mean the Spearmen? By 9th ed standards, they have been wearing nothing less than medium armour. In 8th ed, they can choose between light and heavy instead.
DeleteIn 5th Edition they could. In Tuomas Pirinen "Codex"
DeleteYes, in 5th ed they could choose between light and heavy, medium armour did not exist back then. Medium armour is a better fit for them overall.
DeleteMathias:
ReplyDelete-I think I found a good solution to even out the HE and DE core a little bit, allowing for the HE spearmen to comparatively remain at 10 pts a model. See Posts under the last DE army book update.
Regarding the Warriors you've added btw:
-If given Medium armour and their shield swapped for additional hand weapon, they are at 9 pts a model, just like the DE Corsairs, with the exception of their armour being 5+/5+ (plus Parry) and the Corsairs being 4+/6+ (plis Parry) and theiy have usual better Martial Prowess special rule. They can both Skirmish for free. The only thing the Corsairs have going for them is the Option of a small banner. I know which unit I'd generally prefer, which is a bit of a shame as a "generic" HE warrior unit is overall better than one of the DE more unique units...
TNot only that, but they also make the DE Bleaksword unit sub-par in comparison. So in one new unit, the HE army has gotten a flexible unit that compares favourably to two of the DE units, for the same cost in both instances...
Comparatively speaking, the strength of the DE core used to be the option of a hand weapon and shield type warrior (not that he was good vs. a HE spearman fighting in two ranks more) and the 2x shot repeaing crossbow, which has now been arguably been outmatched by bows and certainly longbows.
I was really hoping that you would balance out some of GW's long standing unbalance as far as the Core sections of these armies go, but due to meta changes as well as the above mentioned hated (by me at least) Warriors, the HE army has once again ended up taking a virtual dump on the DE army. The HE Core is better at Everything basically, and that's not even taking the Sea Guard and Silver Helms into consideration...
- About the corsairs, they also have +1A for the front rank. So the armour is equal in total, but corsairs come out ahead in terms of offensive ability.
DeleteBleakswords and Warriors are the same as far as skill is concerned though, the only difference is re-rolling 1's to Hit vs To Wound, so it's marginal at best. Skirmish is just a free option, nothing that makes them inherently better.
Repeater crossbows are better in that you can move and fire and stand and shoot while using multiple shots, so they have their uses compared to the elven bows. Dark Elves also have expendable Slaves and harpies in core now, so they have different builds compared to the silver helms (which the HE have better than the DE, I'll admit).
-The Warriors can change their shields in for hand weapons for free so they also get the +1A for the front rank etc and they have better armour for melee combat, so unless I'm missing something here I think you are wrong Mathias...
ReplyDelete-Warriors are slightly better at fighting and have the option to skirmish... kind of better in every way, if not by much...
-Yes, they are better in that sense but bows have better range, can volley fire etc, so are better in that sense. it is sitational offcourse, but my point is that the DE army doesn't have the advantage is firepower that is used to have previously. Arching against a Repeater crossbow armed army is no longer a mre fearful proposition than marching on a bow armed one, rather the opposite in most instances. You know I'm for those changes in general Mathis, I'm just pointing out that the DE army (core section specifically in this case) has always been sub-par to the HE one in general and now it has become so much more so...
Expendale slaves will be interesting Mathias, but I don't feel they will change the game that much, mostly because all the elven armies tend to be rather stretched thin on points due to their high cost, and the slaves can't really fight and win anything. I think slaves are much easier to find room for in a skaven army, due to their overall low point cost etc. Still I love the idea and I'm sure they re going to have their uses. :-)
Yes, the harpies are core technically speaking, and they certainly have their uses, but it wouldn't make much overall difference if they were Special. A unit doesn't tend to cost that much in terms of points after all.
Arching was supposed to be Marching.. damned tablet keyboard...
DeleteIf the Warriors swap their shields for AHW and buy medium armour they do have better armour in combat yes, but worse armour against missiles, so they will pretty much cancel each other out. We are talking about maybe a 0,5 pt difference overall that will only ever be noticable if HE and DE fight each other, and then DE have Hatred instead of re-rolling psych tests, which could arguably be better. Altenatively, I could nerf Valour of Ages to allow re-roll of Panic tests rather than all Psych tests.
DeleteMy point is that this one unit equals and takes an equal role as both the corsairs and the bleakswords of the DE list and is also marginally better at both roles Mathias. If you insist in keeping he unit in, I'd remove the medium armour upgrade option at least. Makes sense if they are navy personnel such as sailor or other non-military personnel really...
DeleteOn top of this, due to the meta changes, the HE Core Section, now arguably eclipses the DE when it comes to shooting, has better spearmen and no longer suffers from being forced to rely on spears as was their trademark previously.
How about giving the DE a slight boost to their Eternal Hatred as I've suggested under DE 1.02 instead to even things out Mathias?
The point is so few people has the swordsman miniatures(I'm on of them) and they will be glad to play them properly.
DeleteThe models I got from Black Tree Miniatures and Ral Partha wear full armour(medium) so I would not recommend about taking them out.
As I said in the Druchii post with photos included the Druchii should have "Silver Helms" as they had in 3rd edition. Maybe playing with Dark Riders equipment would be enough or a different entry(this one would be my prefered).
As an Elf player(I have all 3 armies) I wouldn't like to see more nerfs, I rather prefer adding options and things from the past editions. That was the reason I said about the light armour option spearmen. I would like to see them as Oriental Roman Legionaries that depending of the climate or the "level" wear more or less armour.
Vincent:
DeleteBuilding an army list based on which models exists from any and all companies that makes a model is a bad idea I think... If you take this too far, then every army will have so many options in the end that they all lose what defines them tactically on the gaming table. What an army lack is equally if not more defining of an army as to what it includes. Any balance army book should have both.
There is a good reason why GW carefully expanded their army books to include 1-2 more options for every new edition I think.
If one has to concern oneself with every non-gw model out ther that could possibly fit in the army, I think one is going down a dangerous path very fast as far as the armies having any sort of coherent balance between them is concerned.
DE "Silver Helms" would add a 4th Cav option to the army list, which to me seems a bit much for an army list that represents a race not exactly hailing from vast, grass -filled plains etc.
It is up to Mathias offcourse, but I would caution against adding too many new otions to an army list, instead of making better rules and so on for what already exists.
@ Rune: I would be fine with removing medium armour from Warriors with 2HW's at least, since they would fit better with light armour anyway. Not sure if fits that well for the Swordsmen, as I would imagine that many people would convert spearmen to swordsmen.
DeleteI don't think giving DE more bonuses to their Ld is a good idea though, since that already applies to High Elves. However, I would be fine with nerfing Valour of Ages, as I mentioned earlier.
I'm not planning on adding another Cavalry option to DE though, Dark Riders can already be given barding to act as medium cavalry with a 4+ save as is.
Well, the problem if you only remove it from the 2HW warriors and not the HW&Shield option is that you still end up with two new units in the HE list, where one is marginally less powerfull than the Corsairs while the other is far better than the Bleakswords (re-rolls and option to Skirmish). Two good new units that help plug up the HE's inherent weakness is quite a bit of a boostin the Core Section, on top of Archers and Sea Guard now being quite a bit more powerful.
ReplyDeleteIf it is that important to actually have rules for those models, I would perhaps consider writing up some lore for a unit using those models that would fit in the Special Section of the Army instead. Caledor Squires or something like that perhaps...
I see what you think regarding that being a bit of an identical conflict, even though the DE re-roll panic test would be a general rule (in case you misuderstood that in my txt) and the HE one is a vs. DE only. I do think however that it would balance them out very nicely. HE's having better re-rolls and DE's having slightly better Panic rules on average (but not against the HE's specifically).
Peronally I do like the idea that the DE's represent the only non-undead army on the Destruction side that are disciplined professionals as well.
Another option could be to give the DE that and change Valour of Ages for the HE's to grant some other bonus when facing the DE's offcourse. :-) Nerfing Valour of Ages would be a bit pointless as it isn't really that good a special rule to begin with IMO... :-/
Good. I think the DE's have all the Cav they need and they are all pretty decent too. No need to make a bloated list just for the sake of what I presume are some very outdated models that barely anyone owns or would bother to field...
Valour of Ages could potentially be changed so that it would mean that Forces of Destruction units would need to outnumber the HE's more than normally to benefit from the outnumbering bonus. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteLetting them ignore enemy outnumbering bonus ffom forces of destruction would be within reason I think. It also would build up under their noble hero and custodians of the world aspect of the elves. They do have a unique role protecging the vortex etc after all.
DeleteI can't find it right now, but I think you mentioned increasing the cost of the HE spearman to 11 points to copensate for his superiority over the DE spearman. Would this impact the Lothern Sea Guard as well? If not, this will most likely just make everyone take Lothern Sea Guard instead, as ther is really no drawback too it but a 2 pts difference...
ReplyDeleteThat said, are either of these spearmen really woth 10-11 pts npw that Always strikes first is no longer a thing for all elves? I agree that attacking in one more rank is easily woth a point, but that still leaves an standard elf at 10 pts in medium armour with a shield, spear and medium armour. Compared to a dwarf wwarrior at 9 pts in heavvy armour and shield and a host of special rules, not to mention T4 and better LD, I'm pretty confident that I'd rather have a dwarf clansman in my infantry. Compared to an empire Spearman at 5 pts/model (with Shield, light armouur and spear), it does seem to be rather a lot as well tbh. 2:1 cost for some slight stat differences and a bit of armour on T3 troops seems a bit much for what you get now that ASL is gone in my opinion. Hell, even Skaven Stormvermins with Halberds, medium armour and Shields are only 7,5 pts/model, which for all intens and porposes have a very similar statline (apart from Ld which their special rule really tends to place at 10 anyhow)...
I'm thinking that a basic Elf Spearman in Medium armour witha shield would be much better fitted at 8 pts/model. I can't really see why they are so expensive. Calling something "Elf doesn't provide any game benefit after all...
Yes, I am aware spears are slightly better now , which could potentially justify 0,5 pts/model, but ASL is gone which I'd easily call a 2 point per model cost. Yes, armour for infantry is generally slightly better as wll now, but that does not solely apply to elves. It also applies to anyone that is no longer wearing Light Armour (such as the Storm Vermin and Dwarf warriors mentioned above).
This does not offcourse only apply to Spearmen, but I used those as the best example since we've had that debate and taken a close look at hose units already Mathias.
What’s the correct Initiative stat of the Lord of Aenarion? In the description is 9 but in the army list 8.
ReplyDelete