Monday, 19 October 2015

Beastmen 8th ed book out now!

Update 24/10:
  • Ambush free upgrade for Gors and Ungors, so they can deploy like normal.
  • Lowered some more casting values for Lore of the Wild. I want to hear players' suggestions on what other buffs the lore needs to be worthwhile taking over other lores.
  • Great Bray-shamans back to T5, 200 pts.
  • Bray-Shamans back to 75 pts.
  • Gnarled Hide 15 pts.
  • Ungors 4 pts, Ungor Raiders 5 pts.
  • Bestigors 11 pts.
  • Minotaurs 42 pts.
  • Centigors 18 pts.
  • Cygor 175 pts.
  • Jabberslythe 175 pts, added 4+ scaly skin.
  • Ghorgon 225 pts.
Also considering nerfing the Preyton to a MB, similar to that of a Great Eagle, and make it a special unit. The model is pretty small for a Mo, and is about the same size as a Great Stag (which is a MB), so it would probably be more fitting and set it apart from the other Mo more.

Finished with version 1.0 of the new Beastmen book. Old players should find most of it very familiar, as I have not tried to go overboard with changes for change's sake. The book plays very similar to the last one, but I've tried to add some more options, as well as taken away some of the ones I did not feel fit very well with it. I would definitely not call myself an expert on Beastmen as I've only played against them a few times, but I've updated the points values on most units to be on par with other books (and cheaper in some cases). Changes are as follows:

  • Primal Fury does not give Frenzy on doubles. It only had a 1/36 chance to do so, and there are several ways to get frenzy already in the list.
  • Beastmen ambush replaced with normal ambush.
  • Marks of Chaos are available for Characters and Bestigors.
  • Gorebulls can no longer be BSB.
  • Gors are WS3, 6 pts basic. Did not make much sense that they were more skilled fighters than Orcs really, and is consistent with the WS of the Wargor and Beastlord.
  • Gors and Ungors may skirmish for free.
  • Gors may have morning stars and throwing axes.
  • Ungor Raiders may have javelins, can be upgraded to scouts.
  • Bestigors have LA by default, can upgrade to HA. Can switch GW's with halberds for free.
  • Minotaurs 47 pts.
  • Centigors 20 pts, "Sober for Once" gives them FC, as well as +2I. LA optional.
  • Razorgors 40 pts, US 3+.
  • Razorgor Chariots 110 pts.
  • Harpies can no longer scout.
  • Chaos Trolls added.
  • Chaos Spawn special unit, 3D6M, 50 pts.
  • Preyton added, 175 pts.
  • Ghorgon 235 pts, Swallow Whole is in addition to normal A, regains 1W if successful.
  • Cygor 200 pts.
  • Jabberslythe has Hover instead of Fly, 200 pts.
  • Chaos Giant 175 pts.
  • Gorthor auto-wounds on doubles to Hit.
  • Moonclaw's Stupidity no longer affects friendly units.
  • Morghur is a Lord choice, has magic items from 6th ed.
  • Lore of the Wild has seen some slight buffs overall, lowered casting values. Primal Onslaught is added Lore Attribute.
Hope you guys enjoy it! Let me know of the usual bugs and other changes you like/hate or wish to see.

Beastmen Download


  1. Hey Mathias, I don't think you defined Man-Bane anywhere in the book. Looks awesome though. Thank you so much!

  2. Also Mathias, I would give the marks to all units--I mean that has been a staple among Chaos as long as I can remember. I don't know how you feel about the Gors, but I would like to see all units have some marks--I mean, the Warriors of Chaos and Daemons all do.

    1. I want them to feel different from the other chaos armies, hence I want to only be available for a few units. Only a few beastmen would ever be considered worthy by the Gods, most of them are more or less forsaken.

  3. It looks like the Empire is next, I'm a little disappointed that a lot of my suggestions weren't made use of but oh well. Here's my suggestions for the Empire:
    *Brace of Pistols with a Repeater Pistol becomes a Brace of Repeater Pistols. Has the Multiple Shots (6) special rule.
    *Arch Lectors become WS5.
    *Grand Masters can replace their horse with barding with a Pegasus, Demigryph or Gryphon.
    *Witch Hunters can ride a horse. They may also replace their Pistol with a Handgun (free), Repeater Handgun (5pts), Repeater Pistol (5pts), Grenade Launching Blunderbuss (5pts), Hochland Long Rifle (15pts) or Brace of Repeater Pistols (15pts).
    *The various infantry get folded into two units, Empire soldiers and Empire marksmen. Both cost 4pts base and are only equipped with a hand weapon (no armor). Both can upgrade to Light (1pt) or Heavy (2pts) armor. Soldiers can be upgraded to veterans (2pts) and have all the usual weapon options. Marksmen have a mandatory ranged weapon option.
    *Detachments and Regimental Unit systems are removed. Instead, Greatswords allow any unit of Empire Soldiers/Marksmen to use their leadership and Stubborn special rule when those are within 3". Soldiers can counter-charge whenever a unit of Greatswords, Soldiers or Marksmen is charged within 3". Marksmen can give Supporting Fire to any unit of Greatswords, Soldiers or Marksmen that are charged within 3" of it.
    *Pistoliers moved to Core, Knightly Orders moved to Special and Demigryph Knights moved to Rare. This helps differentiate them from the other Heavy Cavalry dominant faction (Bretonnia).
    *Reiksguard Knights removed. Instead, upgrading Empire Knights to Inner Circle costs 5pts and also grants Stubborn.
    *Greatswords can be upgraded to S4.

    1. Perhaps you should also combine the Cult of Ulric and Empire lists since the Cult is part of the Empire.
      *White Wolves could be represented by allowing Empire Knights to replace their Lance and Shield with a Halberd.
      *Greatswords get a name change and the ability to replace their Great Weapon with a Halberd, shield or second hand weapon.
      *It becomes possible to take a Grand Master on foot or on a Giant Wolf.
      *Winter Wolves and Sons of Ulric become Rare choices.
      *Knights Panther removed (they are already represented by knights wielding lances).
      *Extraneous units like Wolfkin, Sons of Ulric and Swords of Ulric get removed.

    2. Can't make everybody happy unfortunately! Quite a few of your Empire ideas will be implemented though :)

  4. Just a couple typos I noticed:
    The Ghorgon has both ItP and Frenzy, but Frenzy covers both.
    In Gorthor's entry, the special rule on Bagrar reads Ttiskgor rather than Tuskgor.
    The Army List entry for Molokh Slugtongue reads "Moonclaw is a Level 2 Wizard", rather than Molokh being that.

    As always, I love your Army Books! Can't wait to see how you will work out one of my own armies. Keep up the great job!

    1. The reason it's separate is because you can lose Frenzy but not ItP. As a beastmen player Id be quite sad to see it change the ghorgon is the best incarnate

    2. Right. I forgot about that part.

  5. Ambushers is a rule mandatory to use, thats why you can't deploy the wood elves forest riders. You should put that rule as optional, like skirmish or you can't play with your gors on the battlefield until turn 2 (with luck).

    1. That's true, it's something I plan on changing in my 9th ed version. But until then, I'll make ambushers optional.

  6. Awsome work thank you very much! Where can we see a Tomb Kings book from you?:)

    1. It will be a while, lots of other books to be updated first!

    2. Cool. Tomb Kings changed a lot in the 8th edition because the magic is very different (same for all). I kind of miss it but I guess it will remain like that. Can't wait what you come up with that book.

  7. Mathias, do you intend to give more marks to other units? Or are you happy with the Marks as they are now?

  8. The book looks really great! I just feel the rules still need a little fine-tuning...

    A few things I've noticed in addition to the aforementioned mandatory ambush (numbers are the pages):
    - 48 typo: Mark of Nurgle: suffer (without s)
    - 49 typo: Man-bane: any unit IT is with
    - 58: Tuskgor CHariot: Why T 5? They were just fine with T4; with this change I feel there is no need to play Razorgor Chariots
    - 63: Random movement in the profile is 3D, in the special rules it states 2D6
    - 82: The lore needs quite some rework; otherwise it will never be used
    - 83: Gnarled Hide is too cheap; it's one of the most attractive gifts anyway, I'd consider 25 points
    - 84 typo: Stonecrusher Mace: the wielder HAS the ....
    - 95 Bestigors: Are there any particular reasons for removing the heavy armour?
    - 95 Minotaurs: Minos lost the option for heavy armour and cannot properly pursue due to bloodgreed. They still are far too expensive if they are to stay like this. I'd prefer them being able to pursue as normal and a slightly reduced cost, though.
    - 95 Centigors: With the worse armour save and random effect still not worth considering despite lower cost. My suggestion: Let them choose the effect of Drunken, add a statement that they get a 6+ natural armour save because they are cavalry and include the light armour in the cost of 20
    - 96 Chaos Trolls: Options for Great Weapons feel a bit odd here
    - 97 Cygor, Jabberslythe and Chaos Giant are still too expensive. Cygor would be fine with about 170 points, Jabberslythe needs 4+ scaly skin save and due to the loss of flying also a cost reduction to maybe 160 points. Don't know abot Ghorgon and Preyton right now; they both appear to be a little expensive as well due to the lack of any saving throws.

    As always, these are just my personal views on the rules and point costs :).

    1. The jabberslythe need more identity, now don't have enought charisma. Is an encarnation of madness, and it should reflex that.

      Think about rules like this:
      Aura of madness: All units (except jabberslythe) at 6" or less have -1 leadership. (yes, nobody want this spwan near, even beastmen)
      Pulse of horror: It can use this special attack in shooting phase. All enemy units at 12" or less are affected, this units recieves this damage: 2D6-enemy leadership and any positive result are wounds without armour save. This is a magical attack.
      Tongue lash: Shooting attack: Range 12", Strenght 5, Quick shoot, hallucinogenic spit
      hallucinogenic spit: Any model who recieve an unsaved wound have -1 to his leadership the rest of the battle.

      200 points, M6 WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W4 I3 A5 L5.

      This monster need cool rules like those, not good stats or saves. All the army exists only to smash heads, some crazy units are need to keep the insanity.

    2. - Chariots are now on the same level as Orc chariots. DE, HE and Chaos chariots all have the same T. Razorgor chariots still have a lot more punch.
      - What changes to the lore would you like to see? I could see myself lowering the casting values some more, or is it the spell effects you find too weak?
      - Gnarled Hide can go up to 15 pts again.
      - Bestigors have LA by default because the models don't really wear heavy armour compared to other armies that do, and it seemed pretty steep to go directly from no armour to heavy armour. You can just upgrade to heavy armour though, so no loss. I will make them 1 pt cheaper by default too.
      - Will dump down Minotaurs to 42 pts.
      - Will make centigors 18 pts (without LA), +1 cavalry save is already included, as they are Cavalry by their unit type.
      - The official models have AHW's, other companies make models with GW's, so just more options.
      - Will make Cygor and Jabber 175 pts, Jabber will also get a 4+ save (ofc they should have scaly skin!), will make Ghorgon 225 pts. Chaos Giant is already 25 pts cheaper than the official version, don't want to nerf it more than that yet.

      Thanks for the feedback!

    3. I think the Jabberslythe is fine like is, I don't additional unique rules are needed here.

  9. Some good points and some not so good ones.

    Monsters are much better than they were and they're me realistic than the 9th age so no complaints there.
    I don't thing gnarled hide needs an increase but rather should stay at its 15 pts from the 7th ed
    Bestigor should have heavy armour idk he nerfed it they are the only troops with anything resembling an armour save in this book
    Monsters should never have a save really unless, now this would be awesome, he reworked the lore of the wild to give ward saves to monsters maybe spell slot 5 casting value 11-14 range 18"

    1. - Gnarled Hide can go up to 15 pts again.
      - Bestigors have LA by default because the models don't really wear heavy armour compared to other armies that do, and it seemed pretty steep to go directly from no armour to heavy armour. You can just upgrade to heavy armour though, so no loss. I will make them 1 pt cheaper by default too.
      - Don't want to change the spells of the Wild completely, but I don't have problem boosting them to be useful.

  10. Minotaurs, Shamans and Chariots should have access to Marks as well. The Chaos Giant should also have access to the Giant of ______ upgrades as well.

    1. The Bloodgreed special rule can also grant an absurd number of attacks. Perhaps just make it that Bloodgreed grants Minotaurs Frenzy that can't be lost.

    2. The Gorebull should cause 2 Impact Hits while the Doom Bull causes 3. Less rolling that way.

    3. - I want them to feel different from the other chaos armies, hence I want to only be available for a few units. Only a few beastmen would ever be considered worthy by the Gods, most of them are more or less forsaken. Marks on Shamans don't really add much, since they are not fighters.
      - Bloodgreed is nerfed compared to the official version, so they can be as absurd as before.
      - Impact are always either 1 or randomised, so D3 is more consistent.

  11. I dont know if my last post got deleted or posted, but ill try again
    Longtime beastmen player here (200 games in 8th, multiple tournaments, leagues with the goats). I appreciate what your trying to do, and understand that when making a book if you nake it too powerful it wont be accepted by the community. However, beastmen are one of if not the weakest book of the warhammer armies. Some of the nerfs i felt were unnecessary such as
    Gors to ws3....why? Give them marks if you do this, i like the point drop though
    Chariots are still too vulnerable
    Ungors should be 1 point lower
    Razorgors have to be taken in units of 3? This defeats the purpose of the razorgor as a mobile unit who is not constrained since he could be taken as a single model
    Ghorgons need another point drop, blood greed has been nerfed along with regaining wounds for the guy
    Lore of the wild, though slightly improved, is still garbage and no one will take it over the other lores
    Minos are still too expensive, esp with the bloodgreed cap
    Biggest problem is bestigors. Bestigors are super expensive and die in droves in the current book. Now they are more exp (if u want the heavy armor) and are basically the same. Like the option for halberd though.
    Chaos spawn probably should be allowed to be taken in units
    Why is morghur gone from this book? Classic beastman special character

    Once again i love your work, but just keep in mind beastmen players have been saying for years they need more help. If you want to nerf things, herdstone, unkillable doombull. But the goats do not need an overall nerf.

    1. - Gors are WS3 because of 2 reasons: Orcs are also WS3, and I see them as being equal fighters (Gors being somewhat better because of primal fury vs choppas). Wargors and Beastlords are WS5/6, the same as human fighters, and basic humans have WS3. The same pattern can be seen for pretty much all the armies.
      - Ungors will be 1 pt cheaper, though that is really underpricing them a bit.
      - At T5 and 4+ save, they are among the toughest chariots in the game. How are they still too vulnerable?
      - According to the fluff: "Once every decade or so a particularly powerful Beastlord will manage to harness several Razorgors at once", meaning more than 1, and pretty much all similar units are taken in 3+, so it's just making them more consistent with the other armies.
      - Ghorgons will be dropped to 225.
      - What changes would you like to see to the Lore of the Wild?
      - Minotaurs will be dropped to 42 pts.
      - Bestigors will be dropped to 11 pts, also a bit underpriced then because of their good stats.
      - Chaos Spawn are never taken in units in the other books, as mindless creatures they don't really function well as a unit.
      - Morghur is still there, he is a lord choice now ;)

      Thanks for feedback!

  12. Hi,

    Thanks for this great job.
    Just one question : is lore attribute cummulative ? (2 successful spell = 4D6 and discard 2 highest dice)
    With this lore attribute, the frenzy in primal fury can be occure more time.

    1. No, it only works one time each turn. Will clarify that.

    2. Ok, thank.
      And last remark, can you add a version number or changelog in your document ?
      Continue and great job again ;)

  13. Good work so far. But it feels a liitle bit rushed if i compare it with the great bretonnian book. Why gors with ws 3? They are not orcs. Why no new units? Like a centigor hero for example. Modells are there already. And why is the gaint only 175 points if in all other books he is 200 points? Why remove scout from the harpies? Etc.
    I think with some more input from beastman players, this can really be a book accepted by the community.

    1. Well, I did put most of it together in about 2 weeks, and I don't play Beastmen myself, unlike Bretonnia. But this is just version 1.0, updates are coming!

      As for your questions:
      - Gors are WS3 because of 2 reasons: Orcs are also WS3, and I see them as being equal fighters (Gors being somewhat better because of primal fury vs choppas). Wargors and Beastlords are WS5/6, the same as human fighters, and basic humans have WS3. The same pattern can be seen for pretty much all the armies.
      - The Preyton and Chaos Trolls are kind of new ;) Unlike the Bretonnia book, the Beastmen book already got a bunch of units included in their 7th ed update that the Bretonnians never had. As such, there was not as great a need for new Beastmen units.
      - I considered a Centigor hero, but I don't really see him adding them much since there us just one unit he would ever join, and the book already has Ghorros.
      - Giants will be 175 pts in the other books too.
      - DE Harpies does not have scout, and Harpies only work like scouts if they deploy in a forest or rocky crag. Ungors can scout instead.

  14. Hey bro, how works the Parry of Kenjutsu rule with models with Frenzy (like red devils) or mounted models (half army XD) ?

    1. It already works with mounted models, its in the description. Currently does not work with Frenzy though by RAW, not sure it should either to be honest.

  15. Vassily-l. Labrakos26 October 2015 at 00:09

    my humble opionion of how i would have done things):
    -I would have kept the WS4 on the gors (it also allows to diffreciatebetween gors and ungors) instead i would have given(back) the beastlord and wargor WS7& 6 respectivly.
    -go in terms of gifts, magic lores the whole nine yards and ditch the lore of the wild. instead allow unmarked Shamans acces to Lore of life and dark magic. marked Shamans gain spells like their WoC counterparts.
    - bestigors gain WS 5 and more options(flails/halberts and schields).
    - no chimera or giant chaosspawn?

    1. - I think Beastmen with WS7 would be a bit much, I don't see them being better than an Orc Warboss at fighting. This would also make them more expensive. Same with Bestigors, they should be on the same level as Black Orcs, as they are now.
      - I don't think Life or Light fits with the beastmen, since they are kind of into killing thigns rather than giving them life, and Dark Magic is for Dark Elves. Likewise, I don't want Beastmen to just be another Chaos army, so I'd rather have them keep Lore of the Wild than give themt he Chaos lores.
      - I considered Chimeras, but they live in the mountains rather than the forests. Giant Chaos Spawn will probably appear in the WoC book, but I don't think it fits too well with the Beastmen, who are not as favoured as WoC.

  16. * Agree for Giant Chaos Spawn
    * Double 1 on Primal Fury could give Eternal Hatred.
    * Agree for Gor have same weapon skill than Orc Big Uns.

  17. I must be the only one who likes Gors at 6 pts. and WS3. I mean, they were 7 points, had better stats than Orc Boyz, better special rules and no downsides in the form of Animosity, with no explanation in the lore as to why that would be.
    Btw, there's a typo in page 48: "Mark of Khorne: [...] that are already Frenzies".
    Good book, btw, looks really fun on paper.

    1. Makes no sense as all chaos troops bar the unfortunate are WS4 even the chaos hounds.

    2. Gors will be brought back to WS4 as per popular demand in an upcoming update.

  18. Hy man Great work!!! i just read your book
    didnt read the coments so sorry for this question but why dont you put skin wolves in it?

    1. Skin Wolves are already in the Norse book (as Ulfwerenar and Ulf Jarls). They are humans that can transform into beasts, not beastmen per say.

  19. I think 10 points is better for bestigor when compared with other races special troops, I have had them die to a (bestigor) on many occasions from shooting. Plus the point reduction in armour might be in keeping with the style of the book but would be a bitter pill to swallow .

  20. Overall I think its very good, i'm really glad I still have ramhorn helm and gnarled hide, i'm a bit gutted I've lost the hunting spear, but is suspect I would if GW had done another book anyway, so never mind.
    The critiques I would have are;
    Gorebull's cannot be BSB anymore. Why? Can't see any need for that, leaves BM with only one option for BSB. Particularly annoying to me as I took ages converting one out of the Doombull mini.
    Razorgor Herds, i'd echo the complaint that they have to be 3+ units, I think they were just fine as they were,To be honest I don't think your rationale that the fluff says they are gathered in numbers once very so often holds up.
    Core units! I like to collect big armies, and without using the same units over and over it used to be hard to make 25% with BM. With the reduction in cost (which I like overall) its becomes even harder. I think they need another core choice. Could another unit be moved into Core? I noticed you did it with Skaven, moving the Plague Monks, so how about Beastmen? Not sure who, possibly Bestigors, Centigors or Minotaurs (I'd love to do a Minotaur War-Herd, unless that's a future project, i'm sure I remember one in a really old White Dwarf!!)
    Dragon Ogres, I love the models but don't collect WoC, I think they fit for fighting alongside BM, so i'd love to see them as a Special and the Shaggoth as a Rare.
    These are all just my opinion, like I saud at the start I think you've done a top job!

    1. Regarding Tuskgor Chariots, I can see the logic of why you increased the toughness in line with other races, but personally I would prefer to see the unit size increased to 1-3 making them more like Goblin Wolf Chariots. Or both would make them really awesome!
      I definitely agree with the comments that Minotaurs should have access to marks. I can see why it should be restricted to differentiate between other Chaos armies, but Minotaurs would gain the gods favour because they are, well Minotaurs!!
      On the topic of Marks, I didn't see any rules saying that Characters with marks can only join units that have the same mark or no mark as it is in WoC, is this deliberate?

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  22. So, I'm looking at the book you have here. And the rules you mentioned changing, but I don't actually see a lot of the mentioned changes in the PDF I downloaded. Gors are still 8 points. No mention of manbane, Centigors are still 18 points. Did I some how get the wrong PDF?

    1. This is probably because the book has been updated since last year, I post updates for all books regularly. The pdf available from the army books tab is the most recent version.