Thursday, 15 October 2015

Plans for Beastmen update

With the Skaven book fresh off the work table, I've now started on the Beastmen book. I am not planning on making any huge changes with this one, but will mostly focus on rebalancing the rules and make each unit worth taking. I've finished most of the bestiary and am currently working on the army list. As I have vacation next week, I plan to get version 1.0 finished before next Sunday.



Updated: Thanks for the input everyone! Currently planning the following:
  • Marks will be available for Beastlords/Wargors, Doombulls/Gorebulls and Bestigors only, since they are the ones really being featured with marks in the art and fluff.
  • Chaos Trolls will make a return. Considered Dragon Ogres, but they don't really dwell in the forests, so I don't feel they fit with the rest of the theme.
  • Magic item selection will contain all items mentioned in the comments.
  • As well as a few other changes based on suggestions here, stay tuned for the book, hopefully next week.

As such, I would like to get the community's input on a few things:
  1. Should Marks return? If they would, to what extent? Currently considering making them available to characters, Bestigor and Minotaurs only.
  2. Return of Dragon Ogres, Chaos Trolls, and Chaos Ogres. Is this an option that is missed by the community? Are all units interesting, or just a few?
  3. Magic Items, any particulars that you feel are must-haves?
  4. Other stuff that you wish was changed/included?
Apart from that, I'm not planning on adding much else except the Preyton, since I feel the list is pretty solid, and Beastmen cavalry does not really fit. Gors will however, be able to skirmish again. Hurray!

17 comments:

  1. I like the idea of getting Marks back. That would significantly increase the Beastie Boys' potential and hopefully bring them back up on par with the rest of the armies.

    And if you get the monstrous fellas in, don't forget the Marks for Chaos Ogres as well!

    I, for myself, would only like to see a tweak to the Savage Dominion Spell for the Lore of the Wild. While the idea is super (duper!) awesome, it kind of falls out due to the thing where the Bray-Shaman potentially takes the hits along with the monster, and the monster leaves when the Shaman dies.
    Perhaps an increase to casting value, and then the Shaman does not have to take the test when the monster is wounded?

    Little side question: Are your armies intended for use with the End Times rules? Especially those found in the Nagash and Khaine books?

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  2. https://mega.nz/#F!pFgm0RKR!J06C1gVYcjzNGsF8YNLsjQ

    Now you do have access to the original GW documents. (This is a reply to something from a previous posts)

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    1. I understand not including Beastman cavalry but what do you think of my other suggestions? I'll re-post them in case you don't remember:
      *Make Primal Fury be similar to Ogre Charge, Hatred when charging and Frenzy if the charge range is higher than 10. Makes it less unreliable and also means that a Wargor isn't mandatory for every beastman army.
      *Manbane instead grants the whole unit Hatred (Humans) that lasts for every turn.
      *Beastman Ambush replaced with Gor and Ungor units being able to purchase Ambusher deployment for 1pt per model. Special Characters that modify Beastman Ambush instead modify the Ambushers rule.
      *Ungor Raiders get moved to special and become Scouts.
      *Ungor Raiders may spend a point to upgrade their short bows to bows, slings or javelins.
      *Ungor units no longer have a shield by default and are dropped to 3pts per model (they can spend a point to buy it back) they also gain the options to purchase throwing weapons/shortbows for 1pt and can purchase bows, slings or javelins for 2pts.
      *Gor units can purchase either Javelins or Throwing Axes for 2pt each.
      *Wargors and Beastlords become BS4 and also have the option to take Javelins or Throwing Axes.
      *Gor units can purchase Light Armor for 1pt each.
      *Centigors have Drunken removed and replaced with Initiative 4. They also become Fast Cavalry that start with a Hand Weapon and have the exact same list of options as the Centaurs from your Albion dex.
      *Chariots ridden by a character can join Chariot units.
      *Chaos mutations draw from a separate pool instead of the magic items pool. 25 for heroes, 50 for lords just like in the Chaos Warrior book.

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  3. Thanks for adding the Preyton, and bringing back skirmish.

    It has been a while since I have played beastmen, but am looking forward to it now.

    As for you list it looks good so far to me. a good compromise with the marks. Getting old units back is welcome. I will look at my old lists and se if there is anything else I miss.

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  4. Beastmen are chaos, but it doesn't feel right to give them marks. They are chaos as a whole. Marks would just make them the same as the other two

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    1. That being said, if they do have to return(I hope not) then yea I vote limited to certain units. Everything else looks good. I agree cavalry doesn't make sense

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    2. That being said, if they do have to return(I hope not) then yea I vote limited to certain units. Everything else looks good. I agree cavalry doesn't make sense

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  5. 1) If they are to return I like the idea of limiting them
    2) I am not sure all units need re-added. The army has a much more feral forest feel now and those units certainly don't add to that, in fact I think they detract from it, in particular Chaos Ogres
    3) I almost always take a shard of the herdstone, but am not attached to any item
    4) Perhaps changing Beastman Ambush to the USR

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  6. Thanks for all the hard work Matthias! I have a few suggestions
    I don't mind Marks of Chaos in a Beastmen army, they could certainly use the extra oomph and it's kind of weird that they're the redheaded stepchild of the Chaos gods.
    Centigors are a bit overpriced and Drunken Cavalry could use a rewrite so that Sober for Once helps great weapons somehow.
    I'm fine on not bringing back the Beasts of Chaos list, other than perhaps Chaos Trolls. Certainly Chaos Ogres should get the boot.
    Great magic items for Beastmen: Stonecrusher Mace, Hunting Spear, Ramhorn Helm, Chalice of Dark Pain, Skull of Darkoth
    Rubbish magic items for Beastmen: Primeval Club, Eye of Night, The Banner of Outrage
    Gorthor could use a small combat boost, at the moment he's really only there for dat Ld.
    Moonclaw is fricking useless as written, the low Leadership of Beastmen means that he'll hurt his own guys far more often than the enemy.

    And now a few typos and rules questions I've got.

    Skaven
    which are razorsharp for ripping and tearing
    The phrase "This phenomenon is known as
    the black hunger amongst the Skaven and goes some
    way to explaining their propensity for feasting upon the
    fallen and devouring opponents after single combats. If
    a Skaven is forced to fight for a protracted period
    without food it will weaken and eventually die." appears twice in two concurrent paragraphs.
    This chapter rakes a closer look ar the wheels of Skaven
    society
    space in their under-empire is ar a premium
    Some wayward individuals are brought to Skavenhlight
    meteors from the dark circle of MOrrslieb:
    Carefull yselected warpstone is added
    The assassinadepts of Clan Eshin
    the workerclass, the lowly and readily

    Also, is the Plague Priest's extra wizard level overpriced? It's 50 points compared with 35 for pretty much every other one in the game.

    Bretonnia
    The Fay Enchantress has Blessing of the Lady twice in her Army List stats

    Kislev
    The cost for a pistol for a Hetman is just 4 points while one for a Boyar is 6. That seems odd as weapons usually cost more for lords than heroes.

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    Replies
    1. Regarding the "for hire" table. It's a bit odd that Halflings can recruit Golgfag & company, seeing as how they're so notorious for eating Halflings they've got the Maneaters rule I can't imagine any Halfling army letting them get within a hundred feet, let alone recruiting them. Maybe swap them for the Birdmen of Catrazza? They've both got that 1920s Britain thing in common.
      Also, I'd let Kingdoms of Ind take messrs Gotrek & Felix, but that's just me.

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  7. Beastmen notes
    Lower the cost of monsters...right now they are far far too expensive
    Gor and ungor probably need a point decrease, minotaurs definetly do
    Magic items that probably need to stay: herdstone (in some form) jagged dagger, ramhorn helm, beast banner, chalice
    Gors should probably he strength 4 base
    One of the main weaknesses of beastmen is inablility to handle things that other armies can shoot. Beastmen sort of stone thrower/bolt thrower or magic spell...speaking of which
    Lore of the wild needs an update, its almost unusable as it is
    Marks.....meh sure, but not completely necessary
    Point higher armor save for chariots
    Rework beastmen ambush
    Add a new unit or two, something original and beastly

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  8. Hi,

    Great work so far!
    Marks of chaos limited to Bestigors and Minotaurs is a good idea. Don't think that normal Gors and Ungors should have one.

    Also think that the base strength of 3 for gors is ok. But maybe a strength bonus on the charge or first round of combat. Like the one for dwarfs or orcs. Points would be ok for them as they are right now. Ungors maybe one point cheaper.

    No war machines for Beastmen and nor armour or special weapons like hellbards. Would not fit their background. But they need something to deal with fast units and warmachines other than ambush. Maybe cheaper flying monsters. Jabbersyth cheaper or option for a Chimera.
    Or maybe ungor raiders on tusgors as fast cavalry and centigors as heavy cavalry?

    I am ok with trolls and dragon ogers as rare choices but no chaos ogers.

    Lore of the wild is in my opinion not that bad. Needs some small reworks on casting values and potential to really hurt other units.

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  9. Bestigors, minotaurs, centigors and charios with acces to Marks of Chaos.
    Add marks to special characters:
    Taurox has Mark of Khorne.
    Malagor has Mark of Tzeentch.
    Slugtongue has Mark of Nurgle.
    Ghorros has Mark of Slaanesh.

    Remove lore of the wild. Is unnecesary, replace it with lore of shadows, death, fire or beasts plus tzeentch/metal, slaanesh/shadows and nurgle/death. In my rework but, the magic armory has plenty items with bounded spells, spells from the old lore of wild.

    New mount option for shamans, the Herdstone. Is just a big chariot (+ 3 tuskgors and 2 guardians of the pillar (bestigors) with the blaspheme symbol of the bestmens. It gives buffs like other altars and have one bounded spell to restore wounds to allies or wounding enemies without armous saves (with horrible mutations).

    Great centigors as Hero choices, with M8 WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I4 A3 L7. Ah, in my rework the centigors are flammable XD to much alcohol.

    Return of chaos trolls.

    Don't return chaos ogres. They're unnecesary and don't fit with the lore.

    Return dragon ogres. But not as special units but rare units, and no shaggoths, only chaos warrios have the biggest dragon ogres or great numbers of them. By the way, in my rework the dragon ogres are like their lore and they're truly mighty with WS5, S5 T5 W4 I3 A3 L9 and inmune to psychology (75 poins only with light armour).

    Cheaper troops. The army dont need chariots with more armour save, or gors with more strenght, it need be a horde. Ungors with WS2 but Hatred (for lore) at 4 points. Gors with WS3 at 5 points. Chariots at 60 points.Skirmisher gors at 6 points. Skirmisher ungors at 5 points. Bestigors at same points but with 2 attacks (they're not stubborn, they only exist to hit enemies in da face). Centigors fast cavalry 18 points. Razorgor chariot 100 points. Chaos spawns with 3d6 movement, special and 60 points with marks of chaos. 75 poins less for the 3 rare monsters and improve their rules.

    And talking about halberds. Bestigors should have halberd or 2 handed weapon. The old bestigor models had halberds.

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  10. Hey Mathias, I am okay with Dragon Ogres returning, I am not sure about some of the others, as Minotaurs often fill the roles of the Chaos Trolls/Ogres. As far as Marks go, I say let them return. They have been in all Chaos books, Beastmen are no exception.

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  11. Several issues:

    Gors SHOULD be Ws 4 they're chaos chaos always is better at fighting because they do it all the time

    The magic Lore does need an overhaul not just an addition of a lore attribute

    The bray shaman needs a reinstatement of T5 due to his intital points cost

    The books magic items have been cheapened too much which may bring an imbalance.

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  12. Also why is it fair gor get nerfed but war hounds still have WS 4! Surely they deserve WS 3 rather than the gor

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  13. Mino as CORE choice!!!!!!!

    What an insult this option was taken away.

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