Thursday, 24 April 2014

New Estalia update out now!

After many delays, here's the promised update for Estalia. It's not particularly big in terms things added, but it does make a large number of balance changes:

  • Tercio Formation (finally) fixed. It now works like a cross of Pirazzo's Lost Legion and Empire detachments.
  • Pikemen may be upgraded to Aventuros for +1WS and Initiative. Aventuros may form Tercio Formations with Rodeleros. This way, you have to pay a premium since it's a more effective fighting unit.
  • Most Infantry units dropped in price. Pikemen, Crossbowmen, Handgunners, Almogavars, Marines, Mountain Bandits, Sisters of Fury, Black Watchmen and Conquistadors are now 1-2 pts cheaper.
  • Improved text formatting in the background section.

62 comments:

  1. thanks for the update.
    Good work :).

    I will perhaps make a few changes to my taste. I think I wil ladd an option/possibility of having dismounted conquistadores.

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    1. By all means, though then you pretty much have Royal Guard anyway. The Fusillade rule only really works if they are mounted.

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  2. I have a small technical question about tierco formations:
    If you include rodeleros to your pikemen in how many ranks do they fight?
    A- 12 rodeleros in 2 ranks of 6 and 24 pikemen (4 ranks of 6)
    B- 6 rodeleros in one rank and 24 pikemen (see above)

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    1. A) Both ranks of Rodeleros, 3 ranks of pikemen.
      B) One rank of Rodeleros, 4 ranks of pikemen.

      In short, 5 ranks in total.

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    2. I quite like your pikemen update, what would be the strengh in mixing rodeleros and pikes for you rather than only using pikemen?
      Is it the parry save of 5+?

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    3. Just to get this right: don't you have to take at least 10 Rodeleros, as they are a 10+ unit?

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  3. Mathias could I ask you the stats you used in the firsts versions of Estalia when you included Diestros as troops. I will perhaps re-include those in my army list.

    Thanks.

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    1. They were pretty much identical to current DoW Duellists, so I suggest you those rules for them.

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    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    3. I will make a few changes in your list if you don't mind and I will send you the few changes and add ons I was thinking of.
      I think I will take out sisters of fury, some infantry. I was thinking making a mix between marines and bandits. There are a lot of infantry entries in the book. I am also looking for the possibility of adding related "spanish" themed mythology monsters. They have the "bécut" a sort of cyclop and also the culebre a sort of dragon wit ha snake body. I would really like to add something a little "punchy" without denaturing the army.
      I saw also that spanish had an experimental weapon in the 1520. A sort of 2 wheels wagon with heavy arquebuses. :)

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    4. By all means, change what you want. Though you don't really need to take out any units when you could just choose not to use them ;) Sisters of Fury are in the official background for instance.

      As far as monsters go, I felt it wouldn't fit particularly well with the Inquisition theme personally. Much like Bretonnia and Empire doesn't have much in terms of fantasy creatures, I felt that Estalia shouldn't either. But it's up to you if you want to add it ofc.
      What sort of weapon are you referring to? It's sounds rather similar to the Ribault from your description.

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    5. You are right of course about monsters inquisition... True :)
      On the other hand they allow griffons.
      The weapon I was thinking about i a little like a Ribaut indeed.

      http://www.lessingimages.com/viewimage.asp?i=17010249+&cr=2&cl=1

      and a description here. I know from the picture it's not spanish but by the description looks similar to what I have read:

      http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_spanish.html

      "As in later years, the Spanish infantry were supplemented by mercenaries—mainly Italian skirmishers with arquebusses, and Germans with pike or arquebus. There was even a secret weapon, tried in 1512—from 30 to 100 war-carts on two wheels, carrying two or three heavy arquebusses, and a spear and a scythe-blade projecting in front. A five-foot trail-pole behind allowed for man-power propulsion. Apparently designed to break up infantry or cavalry attacks, these early tanks were presumably not successful, as they were used only once."

      I also read somewhere that spanish hired quite foten mercenaries. So perhaps I could go for my first thought about the Estalians: Rather than monsters. I could integrate a unit of ogres or amazons.

      I was perhaps thinking of integrating a war chariot with arquebuses? Not still sure about this one.

      And as I told you I wanted to perhaps mix bandits and mariners. I was also thinking of adding in a unit a swivel gun. Would it be a possibility?

      A background question: What is the relation between Estalians and llizardmen? I have read somewhere that Estalians hated Lizardmen. Could you confirm this to me?

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    6. Griffons are much debated in the Empire as well, but are generally looked at as noble creatures, so they can get away with it, same goes for Dragons and Pegasi.

      Yeah, that's pretty much a ribault all right. If you want to include it in your Estalian army, I would just borrow it from DoW.

      As for mercenaries, just include the ones you like from the DoW book. No need to really include them as their own choice in the book. In fact, half of the Estalian units are already mercs in their own right.

      Not planning on including any chariots beyond the altar of myrmidia though.

      Swivel guns are already in the Sartosa book, but include them if you want to.

      Never heard anything about Estalians hating Lizardmen. It's probably the other way around, what with their rather common "visits" to Lustria ;)

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  4. I was perhaps thinking of adding:
    0-1 unit
    size: 8+
    points 11
    the Perforacion: killing blow
    Face me coward
    Skirmishers
    Estalian steel
    Tactical supremacy (but not sure tehere is any sense of this for skirmishers.
    And I would enter them as a special choice of unit.

    for equipment:
    light armour
    throwing weapons +1 point

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    1. I would put them at 7 pts each with that (using Duellists as a base), you aren't going to get a lot of use out of those abilities on normal skirmishers.

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  5. Hi Mathias, just like Christmas and Birthday alltogether with this upgrade. Just checked my usual armylists and overall I save points for 1-2 more units. Great!

    Just two more questions on the rules:

    1. Tercio-formation: In the end I have to buy the command-unit in a Tercio-combined unit for the Rodeleros, right? Otherwise it would be rather confusing again. So e.g. 20 Aventuri + 10 Rodeleros with full command.

    2. Bulls: The cheapest way of fielding them would be 5 bulls (5*12) and the two herders are for free?
    How are the Herders placed? In the back of the unit like Squigs&Goblins? And: When the bulls are released, will the two herders (if still alive) form one unit? (If they would form two units, they seem at least to me way to cheap)

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    1. Glad to hear you like it!

      1. You buy the command group to the Tercio. "The Rodeleros may not purchase any additional options."
      "The forward ranks of a unit of Tercio are always made up of Rodeleros (as well as any Command Group models)" If the command group belonged to the Rodeleros, the text in the brackets wouldn't be there, since command group models are always placed in the front rank.

      2. Herders are 12 pts each. It's 12pts/model, starting size is 5 bulls + 2 herders = 7 models at 12 pts each. The herders will form their own unit together, yes.

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  6. Okay thanks.

    Final question so far: what is the Minimum size of Rodeleros in the Tercio? 10+?

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    1. "The number of Rodeleros can range from a minimum of five models to a maximum of half the number of Aventuros (rounding up)." ;)

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  7. Yeah, as you say it (facepalm..)

    But one thing again for the Tercio: Is it really meant to be, that the command-unit of the Pikeman will be in the same line as the Rodeleros? This would mean, that all enemy Units fighting the tercio have to make clear all the time how many attacks will affect the pikemen, and how many the Rodeleros. (Best Scenario would mean in the front rang: 3 models command unit of Pikemen, 2 models of Rodeleros)

    Imho it would be way easier to keep the Command unit itself behind the rodelero-line and only force chars to go to the front rank, to avoid the "hiding" of models.

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    1. This won't make a difference, since you remove all pikemen before you remove the Rodeleros anyway. IIRC, you cannot choose to attack standard bearers and musicians separately, so you have to allocate your attacks against the models in base contact, which are the Rodeleros. I can add a paragraph stating that all attacks to the front are resolved against the Rodeleros to make it clearer though.

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    2. Do the rodeleros still keep their parry save as you remove pikemen first?
      I would as a special rule perhaps take the rodeleros first then the pikemen. I have read that the pikemen would take the rodeleros weapons on the ground, but would they really do that? what would be the most efficient weapon? Pikes, swords? Of course inititaive is best with blades.

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  8. Yes, all attacks are allocated against the Rodeleros, so you will be using their save. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a point in fielding a Tercio.
    You remove the pikemen first because you remove casualties from the back in the main rules, it's a lot easier than having to remove the front models every round. It's streamlining the rules to be in line with the BRB.

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  9. On an unrelated note, I'm flicking through the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and it states that "the Griffons dominate the World's Edge Mountains while the Hippogriffs have claimed the Grey."
    Perhaps Estalia (and maybe even Dogs of War) should have Hippogriffs rather than Griffons?

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    1. The Grey Mountains are between Bretonnia and the Empire, not Estalia and Tilea. Griffons are just more common (since they are also used by HE).

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    2. I was just thinking that it would help distinguish them a bit from the Empire and Dogs of War, at the moment the Bretts are the only ones using Hippogriffs.

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    3. Well, Hippogryphs really fit Bretonnia because they are half eagle, half horse; whereas the griffon is the "standard" winged monster in the Old World. There's just not much of a reason for Estalia to have Hippogryphs instead of Griffons.

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    4. Fair enough. On a different note I'm looking at Man-O-War. I figure for "counts as" it might work out to -
      Albion - Norse
      Amazons - Norse
      Araby - Bretonnia
      Cathay - Imperial
      Cult of Ulric - Imperial
      Dogs of War - Imperial
      Estalia - Imperial
      Fimir - Orc
      Halflings - Imperial
      Hobgoblins - Orc
      Kingdoms of Ind - Bretonnia
      Kislev - Imperial
      Nippon - Bretonnia
      Pirates of Sartosa - Imperial
      Norse for primitive humans, Orcs for primitive non-humans, Imperial for the more industry-focused humans and Bretonnia for the less industry-focused humans
      Thoughts? I mean besides some of them like Halflings not having coasts and that.

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    5. I'm not particularly versed in Man O'War, but seems to make sense as far as counts-as rules go.

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    6. The tricky one for counts-as was actually Lizardmen. I eventually settled on Dark Elves because of the whole reptilian sea monsters theme. I guess Black Arks could be some sort of floating temple city?

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    7. Sounds workable enough. There might be fan-made rules for lizardmen somewhere already though.

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  10. Hi Mathias,
    I have posted in the forum a topic about estalian tactics. If you had time to give me your point of vue. I need help in that matter :). Thanks
    Also would it be possible to field demi-grifs for estalians? or at least for heroes.
    What would be also funny would be to have mounted bulls.

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    1. Don't really have the time to give super-detailed tacticas I'm afraid (and I'm far from a great player to begin with). But in general, play them like you would play Empire. Demi-gryphs will not be included though, the list is really too similar to the Empire as is. Bulls probably won't make great cavalry either, just look at your average rodeo ;)

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  11. Hey Mathias, any chance the Avatara of Myrm, can get a boost in items?

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    1. Do you mean Isabella Giovanna Luccelli? Why would she need a boost?

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  12. Felt that her items and abilities lacked in comparison to your other characters, especially if she is an avatara of the war goddess.

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    1. Well, she is already 390 pts and have a ton of different abilities. She doesn't need to be the greatest fighter in the world on top of that as well.

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  13. No I know, I just thought in comparison to other avataras EX: Orion, Ariel, Valten, Karl Franz, Grimgor, etc. She is much weaker. I'm okay with this, but I am just making an observation...

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    1. She costs about the same, if not more, as several of those characters. She is primarily a warrior priestess character, rather than a full--blown fighter.

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  14. So will you put Finubar of the High Elves and the Great Sultan of Araby in the next special character update?

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    1. Those characters never had rules made by GW. The special characters book is only intended to update "official" characters.

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    2. Well they are "official characters" just official characters without stats, and don't tell me that, you made Nakai from scratch. I think the Great Sultan and Finubar would be great additions, I mean they are talked more about than Nakai and a lot of the other characters.

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    3. Actually, Nakai had GW rules from 2005, I never made him up: http://sgabetto.free.fr/Telechargements/nakai.pdf

      Finubar never did though, and the Great Sultan is more or less made-up, only being mentioned once in 6th-7th ed I believe.

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    4. So we can't have them in the book? Bummer...that would complete the system as you are trying to do...

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    5. It's more down to the fact that the special characters book is meant to update beloved characters with outdated rules as opposed to introduce new ones. New or made-up special characters would go into one of the unofficial army books instead.

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  15. Mathias, you got some major errors on your Albion book. Look at pg. 86-87 the swordmaidens and druid neophytes options blend together. I also think this happens somewhere further down on the summary pg. I thought I would just let you know, and if you do an update, give something better/different to Dural Durak, I can build a truthsayer to be 98% like him.

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    1. Thanks for letting me know, I've uploaded a quick fix that takes care of that issue. I will look into Dural Durak as well when I get back to Albion.

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  16. Hey, I have a dumb suggestion for Allied Contingents. Norse Dwarfs? I mean they're around and they've got models. Mite b cool.

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    1. I don't think Norse Dwarfs would differ so much from normal Dwarfs that they would need their own list. If you remove the gunpowder units you can pretty much field the standard Dwarf book and have everything you need.

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    2. There is quite a list of armies that mimic other armies. Some examples:

      Lustria Lizardmen and Southlands Lizardmen
      Dwarfs and North Dwarfs
      Marianburg and Empire
      Tomb Kings and Nagash's Army (though if Army of Carrion is acceptable...)

      Some kingdoms that Mathias should do for interest:
      Draconians of Lumbria
      Nauticans/Fishmen of the Oceans
      Something in the Hinterlands of Khuresh
      Lost Isles of Elithis
      and there are probably many others such as other islands, Kurgan, etc.

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    3. There's no info on Lumbria at all atm, so making them Draconians wouldn't necessarily be correct either. Fishmen and Khuresh are possible, as are Kurgan and Hung. Elithis only contain HE from what I know, so they aren't really on my to-do list.

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    4. Haven't the Kurgan already been represented in the WoC book?

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    5. Not really, the WoC book only has generic marauders, which could be from any of the tribes. There are no specific rules for Kurgan or Hung like there are for the Norse.

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  17. A quick search gives the following as the planned allied contingents.

    >Tilean Mercenaries (replacing Mercenaries of Tilea, but will give you more distinct mercenary units instead).
    >Border Princes (based on the Balkans, Byzantines and Greeks)
    >Marienburg (based on Dutch trading companies)
    >Gnoblar Hordes (updated WD list)
    >Dwarf Slayers (updated SoC list)
    >Army of the Cairns (updated WD list)
    >Cult of Slaanesh (replacing the full book, updated SoC list)
    >Zombie Pirates (updated WD list)
    >Hinterlands of Khuresh (based on Snake-men, Naga, as mentioned in Monstrous Arcanum, only a maybe here)
    >Pygmies (maybe)
    http://warhammerarmiesproject.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/possible-allied-contingents-book-in.html

    Most of them are previously-existing armies that appeared in old issues of White Dwarf or the Storm of Chaos event.


    Eh, I'd probably just use the Slayers list for a "counts as". They seem like they'd be suitably brutal and low-tech.

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    1. That sounds like a good assessment. So you agree with Mathias that there is no word on Lumbria. I thought I read a book though, that had Mathias' help and it was called the Draconians of Lumbria.

      Also as a side note, I found an error on Nippon. For the Shinobi special character on pg. 80, 92 it says that he takes 2 wounds, then it shifts to 1 wound. I am sure everyone knows it's 2 wounds, but I don't know if you want this correction or not. If I find anymore, I'll try to let you guys know.

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    2. The book you are speaking of is a completely made-up faction. I helped the guy a little bit with some basic stuff, but didn't actually work on it per say.

      I've fixed the 1W bug, will upload it later today.

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    3. Will the Snake men be more akin to the Lizardmen? I mean there is a Lost City of the Old Ones, the Snake God is Sotek--and the terrain is jungle like Lustria. So my question Mathias--are the Snakemen more like the Lizardmen? Good?

      I really enjoy your books Mathias and I appreciate the hard work. Hope to see another one out soon. Are the Fimirs going to be apart of the Allied Contingents? Or will they still have their own book? I hope they have their own book.

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    4. The Naga you mean? They would have some similarities sure, but wouldn't be Lizardmen per say.

      Fimir will get a stand-alone list, but not as an entire army book. It will be more akin to the old GW Kislev list.

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  18. Minor typo in the Halflings Summary. Hound Riders are listed as Infantry.

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    1. Thanks, I'll fix it in the next update.

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  19. Noticed in the Special Characters book that 'Ariel' is spelled several times as 'Arid' (I guess because the 'e' and 'l' together kinda look like a 'd'). It's also spelled 'Ariets' at one point (in the fluff paragraph).

    Just noticed these since the new GW Wood Elf book is out and I have the Ariel model :)

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