Tuesday, 31 January 2017

New Norse update and 9th Ed version out now!

Updated 4/2

This update changes the following:

  • Counter-charge now works whenever the enemy declares a charge.
  • Revised weapon option costs for characters.
  • Increased BS for characters.
  • Ambush for Reavers is free.
  • Ice Drake has 4+ scaly skin.
  • War Mammoth crew follows the rules for elephants, stegadons etc.
  • Norse hunters may not have armour or throwing axes, may have standards and musicians.
  • Frost giants may have light armour, not heavy armour. 
  • Half giants have light armour, removed shields and hatred, 39 pts.
  • Removed Thunderous Charge from Sons of Thor, 44 pts.
  • Lowered Initiative for Marauders, Reavers, Horsemen and shieldmaidens to be on par with WoC marauders from RH.
  • Added Troll Vomit to Snow Trolls.
  • Reformatted some of the background.
  • New background for Skalds.
  • Some new art.


  1. Um... There's no link to the new book. Only two links to the Nippon Army Book

    1. D'oh! Major cock-up on my part, I also posted a link to the word doc instead of the pdf for the 8th ed version. Thanks for letting me know, it's fixed now.

  2. -Remember my old suggestion for how to construct Counter-Charge? Have you reconsidered?
    -Berserkergang should just be Frenzy for every unit that in not meant to be used at range or alongside shields. Norse from the Pirates of Sartosa and Dogs of War books have Frenzy.
    -Kings and Jarls should be BS 4. I figure that they put more effort into their melee fighting than their use of throwing weapons which would mean having +1 WS and -1 BS compared to other human counterparts.
    -Jarls should be I5.
    -If Drenok has Feel No Pain just like the Berserkers, he should also have Frenzy and Blood Crazed.
    -The picture you used for a Skald is using bagpipes which are iconic to the Scots, not the Norse.
    -Why do Huscarls have Shieldwall? As is, they are better at forming shieldwalls than the dwarves which is absurd.
    -Ulfjarl do not need Disguised, just give them the Hidden special rule. Them being unable to be generals or give their leadership to other units could be represented with a different special rule. They should also regenerate like Ulfwerenar and be able to start the game in a unit but non-hidden since in such a unit, an ordinary man will stand out. Consider making them War Beasts with 2 Wounds and I6 instead.
    -Perhaps Regeneration for Einherjar is a better representation. It's used to represent a lot of creatures that may get back up once 'slain'.
    -Perhaps add Rangers from Kislev to the Norse as well. Norse Hunters, Siberian Hunters.
    -I really think that Mammoths are too much more powerful than War Elephants when compared to the size of their slightly smaller cousins. They should be S6 W6 which is still stronger and more resiliant than the War Elephants.
    -Keorl's bonuses should also apply when fighting Monstrous Cavalry, Chariots and Shrines since those are in the same mass class. He still has Immune to Psychology.
    -The Ravenswyd should be Ld9. He is unbreakable so it won't really effect him, it just that he is a hero.
    -Jora should have the statline of a Jarl.
    -Kings should have access to Heavy Armor so that they can wear the Armor of Beowolf. Also, have you considered giving Hetmen from Kislev access to Heavy Armor since several unique characters have it?
    -The Lord of the Seidr does not seem to have any elements of the Lore of Fire and therefore, should not be available to Seers and Vitki.
    -Maybe Jarls and Kings should have access to Javelins as well.
    -Jarls still have access to Heavy Armor instead of Medium.
    -Huscarls should have access to Throwing Axes and maybe Javelins.
    -I think you should remove Thunderous Charge from the Sons of Thor. I would also give them the option to either ride a Fenrir Wolf or a Sleipneir.
    -Frost Giants should be able to upgrade to either Light or Medium armor.

    1. - I considered it, but it would open up a lot of issues in situations where the Norse unit will have enough movement to charge the enemy unit before they even get to move. Would both get to charge? Would only the Norse unit get to charge? If the enemy gets a failed charge, but still have enough movement to reach the Norse unit which is now closer than it was when the charge distance was rolled, will it still be a failed charge? The counter-attack in 40k (at least in 5th ed) was that you got +1A (as if charging), you never moved your unit. In WFB it would just give the Norse +1 CR, not all that interesting.
      - I will update the Norse units in those books to be the same the Norse book. They are not frothing madmen like Khorne warriors, I want to distinguish that.
      - Fixed. Also lowered Init. to be on the same level as WoC marauders.
      - Drenok's feel no pain is a "translation" of his berserker rule from Mordheim. He was however, not frenzied. It's more a "tough to kill" like Erik Redaxe rather than berserker frenzy.
      - The picture is from Skellige in the Witcher 3, a combined viking/scot faction. I figured it looked better than the black and white picture, even if the instrument itself is not exactly Norse. His appearance is, however.
      - The Norse used a shieldwall formation extensively, both in Warhammer and in history. The Dwarfs do not really fight the same way, hence they only get the parry save, but not the shieldwall formation.
      - Fixed. They already generate like Ulfwerenar though. I do prefer them being monstrous to stand out a bit from the normal werewolves.
      - Fixed for 9th ed, since regen pretty much works like that now.
      - Rangers are not really part of the Viking archetype though, so I don't think they need a character for it.
      - Mammoths are a lot bigger than War Elephants, so their stats reflect that. I've actually nerfed them compared to their official rules to make them playable in normal games.
      - Keorl is a beast-slayer, why would that make him able to instantly destroy shrines and chariots?
      - The Ravenswyrd is kind of like a spirit though, much like the green knight, that's why he has Ld10.
      - Jora is more of a shieldmaiden character, she's not "the best fighter in the tribe" like a Jarl would be.
      - Changed the armour of Beowulf to light armour instead. Norse do not really wear heavy armour. Will look into the Kislev book too, they are also supposed to have medium armour at best.
      - Well, the Lore of Seidr is more a collection of god spell rather anything elemental. There's plenty of fire within shamanism and Norse mythology (such as Fire Giants), hence lore of fire fits rather well.
      - I don't think it's needed, throwing axes fits better.
      - Fixed. I think it's better to just keep one mount for them though.
      - I think light armour only fits better, you'd hard pressed to fight a giant wearing that much armour. Most wear a basic chainmail or some leather braces at best.

    2. -You haven't fixed Einherjar coming back instead of regenerating.
      -Many Chariots and Shrines are pushed or pulled by units that would be Monstrous Infantry or Monstrous Beasts without it. Though it may be a good idea to specify that Monster Slayer only helps against Chariots and Shrines that are. Either way, Keorl should get the bonus against Monstrous Cavalry.
      -If Jora is a kind of shieldmaiden character then she should have Javelins. Maybe make her WS5, BS5, T4 like characters from other army books that balance ranged and melee combat.
      -Jarls can still take Heavy armor and Erik Redaxe still wears Heavy Armor.
      -I suggested Medium Armor for Frost Giants because the Glaciar Plates worn by Styrmir are Heavy Armor of which Medium Armor is a step below. They can still forge Jotun Weaponry.
      -Is there any particular reason why Styrmir cannot be the General? One of the story describes a Norse tribe being attacked by Frost Giants with Half-Giant subordinates so Styrmir might have his own army consisting of Frost Giant, Half-Giants and Norse vassals.
      -Presumably, a Counter-Charge happens at the same time as the opponent rushes forward in a charge, not immediately after the opponent's charge peters out and may mean that both sides have the momentum of a charge when they do so. Here's how I would structure it:
      A Norse unit with this special rule can declare to use
      Counter-Charge as a charge reaction if they are charged to the front.
      To make a Counter-Charge, the unit moves D6"+(M/2) (rounded down) inches forward, up to half the distance between the unit charging them and themselves. The opponent unit then makes their charge rolls. If the charge is successful then both the charging unit and the counter-charging unit count as having charged in the ensuing fight sub-phase. If the charge is not successful then move your unit the rest of the distance if they could not go the maximum distance. If this means they reach the enemy unit then combat ensues with both sides counting as charging.

    3. -Snow Trolls are missing Troll Vomit.

    4. -Reavers should just have Ambushers. You made them able to choose between starting on the battlefield or encircling the opponent.

    5. - Fixed now.
      - Changed it so it only applies to Monsters, which really fits his background better. Also removed ASF.
      - Shieldmaidens does not have javelins by default, it's not their main weapon. Made her T4 though.
      - Fixed.
      - Styrmir's armour is a one of a kind though, normal frost giants wear considerably less.
      - I could see him lead an army of frost giants or half giants, but not the Norse themselves.
      - That sounds like original version of counter-charge. Problem was that "meet halfway" is rather vague and cause extra fiddling about with measuring (especially if the units are say, 9,5" apart). However, I think this wording would make it work:

      "A Norse unit with this special rule can declare to use Counter-Charge as a charge reaction if they are charged to the front.

      Before the enemy roll their charge distance, the Norse unit must take a Leadership test. If failed, treat the charge reaction as a Hold. If passed, the Norse unit moves 2D3" forwards using the Random Movement special rule, but stopping within 1" of any enemy unit.

      The enemy unit then rolls their charge distance and complete the charge as normal. If the charge is successful, then both units will counts as charging in the ensuing combat phase."
      - Added troll vomit and fixed ambushers.

    6. -I forgot to mention that since the new Counter-Charge is more powerful since it can grant the charge bonus every time it is done instead of only in the cases where your opponent fails a charge (whose frequency is dependent on how aggressive your opponent is, against a cautious opponent, counter-charge will almost never be usable), Counter-Charge should only be a rule possessed by Kings and Jarls.

    7. -Mammoths still have Battle Howdah and Reinforced Structure in the unit costs section and lack Natural Armor (5+). They should also be available as a Mount for Kings.

    8. -Reavers still have Shields by default. They should choose between Shields and Two Hand Weapons and have access to Throwing Axes.
      -Einherjar should have the option to exchange their second hand weapon for a shield or spear and shield. This would represent different ways that the ice could form.

    9. - The new counter-charge is not that much better. It will be used more often for sure, but it also makes it easier for the enemy to get into combat since they don't have to charge as far. The Norse do not have many units that get a lot of strength bonuses from charging (and Berserkergang they already pay extra for).
      - Will fix. I don't want the mammoth to be a character mount though, most Norse lords would prefer to fight more close up and personal.
      - I think that's fine, most basic Norse would carry a shield, but can opt for 2HW's if they want higher damage output, slinging the shield over their backs.
      - How would this work? Does the crystals form from the shield? I'd prefer the Einherjar to be a more offensive unit, makes them stand out from the Core more.

    10. Do you think there should be a minimum distance the enemy needs be be away from the Norse unit in order to initiate the counter-charge? For example, they can only use the counter-charge if the enemy is outside their movement value? Otherwise it would be like the Norse unit gathering themselves together and charging instantly if the enemy unit was only a couple of inches away...

    11. That's a good point, I've added that in now.

    12. -Whose movement should be specified. It's obviously the opponents movement but without that context I can't tell whose.

  3. Can I ask a dumb question? I love your pdfs of all the armies you had done so are you going to do a full army pdf of the factions listed in ravening hordes? If not, then can I please know why?

    1. See the predicted update order to the top left...

  4. The link is still for the Nippon Book sorry ^_^......Waiting for the Norse

    1. What link are you using? The links up top under army books are correct now, I just checked them.

  5. Hey Mathias, what do you think about letting BSBs' take a magic standard in addition to other magical equipment so long as it doesn't go over 50 points?

    Seems odd that a 5 point banner would take up all the magic points.

    1. It would be something I would revisit down the line as it requires me to go through every single army book, but otherwise I don't have a problem with it. That said, those small banners can usually be taken by units already, whereas the BSB would be used for taking the really expensive ones.

  6. Where are the units in these books from? Are they mentioned in official sources?

    1. It's all fan-made inspired by official sources.

    2. Most of the Norse units are based on old Warhammer sources from Citadel Journal and WFRP like Tome of Corruption, and some are based on actual Norse mythology.

  7. Further Ideas on Nippon:

    Perhaps let the Red Ronin take a horse so as to allow for him to join Red Devils?

    I don't love bringing this up but Fauntei Shi has a strong Chinese/Cathayan ring to me as someone who was brought up with the Japanese language.

    I get that it was part of the L5R lore but it just seems really odd to have a Chinese poison be the strongest ninjas would employ when there's plenty of indigenous toxins Ninjas could use. Fugu sac toxin is a perfect example.

    1. The Red Ronin is unbreakable, so he cannot join them.

      That makes sense, I'll see about changing it.

  8. a little of topic too.
    is it really possible for demons to take common magic items from the BRB or only the demonic items?
    there are some really unfriendly combinations possible.
    healing potion for great demons will be a no-brainer...
    and great ones should have locus of their mark.

    1. I will need to look into that. Right now, they would be allowed other magic items since I don't think I put a restriction on the Daemons in particular.

      The Locus is meant to boost the unit the Heralds join, Monsters cannot join units.

  9. Small error in the Nippon timeline.
    "Hung raiders invade Nippon with thousands of ships. However, thanks to Empress Jingu, two thirds of the Hobgoblin fleets are destroyed at sea"
    Which Not!Mongols it, Hobgoblins or Hung?

    1. It's supposed to be Hung, Hobgoblins was a previous version before I synced it more with Cathay. Will fix it in their next update.

  10. There are some errors with bookmarks could you please fix them?

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  12. Howcome the Marauders and Reavers have I 4 in the description but I 3 in the Army List? Should it be 4 since the Chaos Marauders also have 4?

    1. They should have I3 in both sections, I've lowered the Init for WoC as well.

  13. Hi Mathias. Great work! Just one question. Does the Sleipnir in Sons of Thor Units has Impact Hits (1) or just the Characters mounts? Thank you.

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  15. Hello Mathias

    First let me just start by saying that I am really infatuated with your work here. Its excellent stuff from the research to the graphical work to the work to balance I really respect and like what you are doing.

    I myself am a Total War modder and I have my own Warhammer total war overhaul mod based on the 'realism' that is currently WIP. I would like to ask for your permission to base a future installment of the mod, the Norscan overhaul, on your norscan codex here. If you are so inclined to allow us this opportunity you might also be interested and I would love for you to add any input you have for our modding team. Thank you :)
    Mod Link

    Mod discord link, please stop in and say hello

    1. Hi, no problem. Feel free to use anything you want from the book :)