Tuesday, 12 April 2016

Ravening Hordes: Lizardmen out now!

Updated 15/4

The Lizardmen book has seen some changes as far as army organisation goes. All monsters are now rare choices, and MB's have been moved to special. Skinks are getting nerfed by having to purchase poison for javelins, and blowpipes are only S2. Thunder Lizards are not being added since the Dread Saurian takes that role. Sacred Spawnings, more disciplines and Lore of Geomancy will be added in the full release.

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  • Skinks may take short bows.
  • Jungle Swarms moved to core, no longer have "they're everywhere!".
  • New Unit: Coatl.
  • New Unit: Dread Saurian.
  • Kroxigor have 5+ scaly skin, 47 pts.
  • Blowpipes are strength 2.
  • Javelins no longer poisoned by default.
  • Temple Guard 17 pts.
  • Cold One Riders have spears by default, 28 pts, may take magic banner.
  • Chameleon Skinks 11 pts.
  • Bastiladon S5, T6, W5, Stubborn, moved to rare.
  • Ripperdactyl riders have WS3, no longer have Toad Rage. 
  • Ancient Stegadon removed, Stegadon moved to rare, have all options, no stubborn.
  • Troglodon is now a character mount for Skinks.
  • Razordons/Salamanders moved to special, shares the same choice in the army list. 
  • Horned One added as Skink Chief mount. 
  • Cheaper magic items. 
  • Carnosaur 175 pts.
  • Scar-Veterans may not take Carnosaurs.
  • More expensive Oldbloods and Scar-Veterans.
  • Cheaper Skink Characters.


  1. -Carnosaur Blood Roar mentions Fear tests.
    -Primeval Roar and Chameleon say "To H it".
    -The 6 result of the Beam of Chotec says "minim um"
    -The Golden Shroud of Tlzzod grants Always Strikes Last to daemons and undead.
    -Where is the Lore of Geomancy you said that you would add?
    -The Cube of Darkness says "on the roll o f a"
    -Why did you weaken the natural armor of the Saurus and Skinks? Almost everyone else got better armor from your new system.
    -Since Lord Mazdamundi can ride a giant dinosaur I think that generic Slaan should be able to ride one as well.
    -Since my original idea of giving Slaan two profiles was shot down, perhaps give it WS5, BS5, S4, I7, W6, A4, Ld8 to represent its Skink. A note could say that the Skink is the one making the attacks. That should also mean generic Slaan would gain the options available to Skinks. The 6 wounds are because Palaquins usually add +2 wounds to the models profile which probably come from the two palaquin bearers. Lords typically have 3 wounds 2*3=6.
    -Why did the initiative of a Saurus Oldblood get lowered to 3?
    -Skink Chiefs should be able to poison their weapons.
    -Skink Priests have the statline of a Skink Chief.
    -The Bastiladon says: "May replace its Ark of Sotek and 4 Skink Crew and a Solar Engine and 3 Skink Crew". I know what you mean but it's incredibly confusing wording.

    1. Yeah, the reduction of scaly skins saves seems to be a pretty big hit to the lizardmen, especially, as you said, due to many other units receiving increased saves overall. Considering the loss of ASL and ASF, lizardmen are now much slower compared to many other heavy hitting units as their initiative 1 means they hit even after most great weapons. I think this new weakness needs to be remedied with the reinstatement of 5+ scaly skin for saurus, it doesn't break WYSIWYG too hard and allows them to more reliably be able to attack by making it to their initiative step without getting killed.
      However, I don't think making the Slann even semi-viable in combat is a good idea, they are designed to be extremely potent spellcasters. If you gave them powerful combat stats they would become pretty overloaded in terms of power, I think they are good enough as is. This is especially true due to the loss of supporting attacks, they no longer reduce the damage output of Temple Guard by sitting in the second rank.

    2. - All bugs fixed.
      - WYSIWIG really. But since the majority prefers them at 5+, I'll put it back there. Kroxigors and Saurus characters will stay at 5+ though.
      - Mazdamundi's thing is riding a Stegadon, normal Slann don't.
      - I don't think that's necessary, the Skink attendant is not necessarily a fighter at all.
      - It didn't, it is the same in the official book.
      - Sure, I'll add that in.

    3. Sounds like a good compromise, its great that you're taking so much of the community feedback on board. But in terms of WYSIWYG, the scales look to me like much better protection than chain mail or leather armour, especially as they are described as being very hard in the book, tbh I think 5+ suits WYSIWYG better than 6+.

    4. -RAW the Skinks of a Salamander/Razordon pack have Natural Armor (5+) rather than 6+.
      -The fluff says that as a Saurus advances in age to veteran status it's scales become even tougher and fuse together. They really should have Natural Armor (4+).

    5. - It was the same in 8th ed. Since all attacks are normally targeted against the Salamander, this is not really that big an issue.
      - I'll look in to it, but you could argue that's also why they have T5. I'd just like to avoid LM having the most heavily armoured characters in the same, especially since they hardly wear armour to begin with!

  2. Are Slann stats as intended?

    Not a big fan of the armor change. I read what you said about it being a WYSIWYG of their scales, but such a dynamic decision I'd be reluctant to make.

    Balance has not been investigated, BUT we've down graded one of the "heavy armored infantry" faction to light armor+shields. (Sauruses are under this just as armored as Orcs. Warriors 5+, Elites 4+/5+, Cav 4+). Very minor point, I felt the Old Blood being one more armor was a nice touch with its other stats being a little stagnate (Ld), but that's not a point I'd champion.

    I'd say Skink Skirms, for an equivalent exchange they'd get poison javs+shields for blowguns. That might be too complex, because I wouldn't want to give them poison CC for free. Based on my own experience.

    Finally on monsters. "Special" monsters is a Staple of Lizardmen. Maybe that's something that sets them up as too cheesy. (Also my intuition says that the Bastiladon is terrible.)

    1. Looking at the models, the Skinks and Sauruses all have bony plates to protect themselves. The only models that don't have such plates and therefore, have the removal of their Natural Armor make sense is the Chameleon Skinks.

    2. - See above comment regarding scaly skin.
      - No sure what you mean about the Skinks, isn't that what they have now?
      - Mo in special makes it too easy to spam them. You still have plenty of options for field Mo, but you are limited to 25% of your army (giving you 2-3 big monsters in 2500 pts, plus character mounts).

      As for chameleon Skinks, they also had scales, and Scaly Skin in 8th ed, so they will get their save back too.

  3. - seems a little strange that the slann dropped to leadership 7, maybe a typo?
    -Temple guard seem a bit overpriced now. I don't have the book but I believe chaos warriors with halberds and no marks are 16-17 points, and they would have a two point better armor save with full plate, better weapon skill, and better initiative.
    I know chaos warriors are a really good unit and not usually a good comparison, but for roughly the same cost and combat role it seems they should be a bit more balanced against each other

    1. - Yes, that's a typo.
      - Chaos Warriors will also get redone, so they will balance out. It's better to compare the Temple Guard to Saurus Warriors. You get +1 WS, I, LD, LA, halberd, stubborn and ItP, all for 5 pts more.

    2. -cool, thanks for the quick reply!
      - okay than that makes a lot of sense, especially now that the temple guard were bumped up a point of armor now

      Love your work, can't wait to see tomb kings!

  4. questions for natural armour:
    -The cold one/horned one have 6+ NA does that give an increased AS on the rider or is that just lost due to being lower or equal to the normal natural armour?
    -The Carnosauer does this also combine with the old bloods natural armour or is it just the highest that will be used?

    1. further more:
      in the rule book for 9th you write this under monstrous infantry: ...Following the same logic, a unit of monstrous infantry only needs a frontage of six models to count as a horde, rather than the normal ten.
      I cant find the rules for Horde-formations and it is not mentioend for the infantry? Is the rule not there or where can i find it???
      - you have done a good job regarding these books :)

    2. The armour saves for mounts and riders are combined in 9th edition, so cold one riders with 5+ on the saurus and 6+ on the cold ones would total 4+ for the model. Same thing happens when mounting characters on monsters, which can be amusing, as a high elf price on a star dragon gets a default 1+ save and toughness 7, so much for being the most fragile characters in the game.
      Hordes do not exist in 9th, instead large units tend to have even higher static combat resolutions due to rank bonus, outnumber, and wider frontage. Overall, the shift has been to nerf the combat power of horde units such as clanrats and skeletons, but increase their static combat resolution to compensate.

    3. - It is combined for all the mentioned mounts.
      - The Horde mention is a leftover from 8th ed, I will remove it in the next update.

  5. Good changes overall, I dig what I'm seeing.

    I think Becalming Cogitations should be a bit more expensive, as is it's a borderline autotake (especially since with the removal of bonus to cast and dispel the rolls got a lot more varied).

    Also I'm glad Saurus Armour didn't get nerfer, the biggest weakness of those guys is the fact that low initiative essentially guarantees that you'll lose a couple before oyu get to hit, increasing the casualities wouldn't have made sense.

    Also I think Saurus Lords and Heroes on foot shouldn't be quite as expensive whereas Cold Ones got a little too cheap in my opinion.

    One small plea I have concerning Skinks is increasing the number of them I can field. It opens up magnificent synergy with the Beast of Horros spell (though I'd understand if you wanted to remove cheap tactics like that one).

    Also not so sure if Light and Life make sense on Skink Priests, sure it opens up more possibilities but I was thinking more in the direction of Fire. Sacred Spawnnings maybe?

    The biggest caveat I have about this rulebook are the changes to the Bastiladon. It was always thought of as a support monster rather than something that could hold the ground on it's own. I think with S4 and T5 it deserved a spot in Special, especially now that Stomp got removed.

    Speaking of Monster rules, are Stegadons really the biggest losers of the new update? I mean now that everyone has impact hits getting one more is pretty underwhelming.

    Also two rule questions I'd like you to faq.

    1.Do I get Pred.Fighter with Spears?
    2.Can i use Skink Chief BS to fire Stegadon Guns?

    Love what you did otherwise, great job Mathias.

  6. - I'll bump it to 30 pts.
    - I'll bump Cold One mounts a bit too, but the Saurus characters are still very much worth taking, getting +1S, T and A over a human character for around 50 pts.
    - By lowering their price? That would make them a bit too spamfriendly I think.
    - Fire would make sense too, I can add that as well. Light and Life still feels fitting to me (living in a jungle, sun gods and all that).
    - I considered that, but the model is about the same size as the Stegadon, so it should have similar stats. Now the Bastiladon is a real tank with stubborn making it an ideal tarpit unit with support attacks.
    - Stegadon should have 2D6 impact hits in 9th, will update that. This makes Stegadons more offensive compared to the defensive nature of the Bastiladon.

    1. Yes, will clarify that.
    2. No, that would complicate things since you fire two blowpipes and you would then have different BS values for each one. It's also not balanced for that.

  7. Just noticed, Carnosaurs are listed as having frenzy instead of their Blood Frenzy special rule.

  8. The current wording doesn't exclude Kroxigors in Skink units from getting poisoned attacks for 2 points each...

    So, in the current version, a unit of 10 skinks and 1 kroxigor would all take Poisoned Attacks for 22 points (including the kroxigor) - if the intent is for just the skinks to have the option, the wording should say "All skinks may have Poisoned Attacks....2pts per model".

  9. Hi Mathias,
    A couple of suggestions:
    Bring back the Skink Skirmish Screen rule from 6th edition. It seems like a tactic Skinks and Kroxigors would use. Plus it was an awesome ability :)
    I would like to see the Slanns being able to take Loremaster in any of the eight lores of magic aswell as High Magic. Since they are the most powerful spell casters in the old world it only makes sense to give them access to all spell schools.

    Let me know what you think, of course this goes for other people than Mathias aswell :)
    Love what you have done with the game, 9th edition is the best version of Warhammer so far!

  10. 9th edition link seems to be down :(

    Loving your stuff by the way, hoping to try some really soon with my group.

    1. Fixed it now. Hope you enjoy the rules!

    2. Thanks, that was super fast! Hey, d'you know if anyone has pur your rules into a list maker - such as battlescribe?